Motivating sinners to obey and love God does not atone for past sins. Ceasing to sin does not atone for past sins. The wages of sin are not waived because we cease sinning. Death must happen in consequence of sin. Jesus paid our sin debt of death.

The wages of sin are not something which are "waived." The "wages of sin" is simply "the results of sin." Sin brings these results; this is simply something that sin does. So sin must be defeated, in the minds of the followers of Christ.



This is the same theme I addressed in my previous post, in regards to the law of sin and death vs. the law of life.

This idea is present in many ways in Scripture. For example:



This is speaking of the same idea. We are delivered from the kingdom of the enemy, the kingdom of darkness and death, and transferred to the Kingdom of God, the kingdom of light and life.

Tom, you are not addressing the problem of past sins. You are merely talking about the effects of sin on sinners who are not immediately executed. The wages of sin is not a lifetime of unrest and unhappiness eventually ending in first death. The penalty for sinning is capital punishment ending in second death.

MM, I am addressing, and have addressed it at length. As I pointed out in the beginning of what I wrote, how one views these things depends upon what one sees the problem to be. You see things in what to me would be arbitrary terms, which involves capital punishment, which is an imposed death, not having any direct link whatsoever to the cause. It's simply an arbitrary punishment. I'm not sure how exactly you think God kills people either. I know you think there's fire involved somehow, but you don't think (anymore; you used to, but have updated your view due to our conversations, if I'm understanding you correctly) that the wicked are actually set on fire, but fire is all around them, which causes them physical discomfort.

God could just as easily kill them with a poisonous gas, or hack them with knives, or any of a hundred different ways. I'm sure you'd say because He's God, and everything God does is just right, that He's picked the perfect way to inflict them with suffering and death. A big difference in our positions is that you see that anything like this is necessary. I don't believe this is the case. I believe that suffering and death is the result of sin. God does nothing arbitrary (i.e. imposed; not organically connected) to cause suffering or death.

Capital punishment is not arbitrary in that law and justice require it.

The form of punishment is arbitrary, which is what I pointed out.

Tom,

We've been through this before. But here goes round two.



God has said that He would end the conflict by fire. Jesus warned us of it. In Heaven, all the saints will act a part in declaring the fairness of God in the judgments to be meted out.

What part of this is "arbitrary"? None of it. It is not done by whim, by caprice, nor on the spur of the moment. It is not "individual discretion." It is not done without evidence, and it is most certainly not done without law! It is no lawless act!

If you choose to characterize hell the way the devil wishes to, then certainly you will come away with a misunderstanding of God's character. God, however, is not mocked. "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." This is far from arbitrary. It is justice; completely fair and in accordance with the law. Throughout history, warnings have been given mankind that we should avoid this punishment by fire. Everyone in the world today knows something about hell, and most fear it. Arbitrary, Tom? Arbitrary? Please....

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, under your point of view, God chooses to destroy the wicked in the way you think He will. He could choose to destroy the wicked in some other fashion, but He doesn't.

This is an arbitrary choice, assuming there's no organic connection between the sin of the wicked and their death, which, as I understand your idea, there isn't. God simply sets them on fire, making sure they suffer the required amount first, and then let's them die. So their suffering and death is caused not as a direct result of their choice, but as the result of an imposed (or arbitrary) penalty against them.

To get to the specific point I raised to MM, how is the choice of death by fire not by individual discretion? If it wasn't, then God was constrained to make them suffer and kill them in this way. What constrained Him? There's nothing in the law that says, "If you sin, God will set you on fire, burning you for hours or days, and then kill you."

I'm not understanding your thinking here, GC.

Tom,

Your view of God forces you to disagree with pure truth. Truth #1, here, is that "imposed" does not equal "arbitrary." Yes, the death penalty will come. It will be "imposed" upon the rejectors of grace. It will not, however, be arbitrary in the slightest degree.



Imposed = obligatory, enforced (by authority), even if unpleasant. But what kind of law would it be if it were not enforced? if its penalty were never actually imposed?

Is the death penalty "arbitrary"? Satan believes so, I'm sure. Should sin not require said penalty, and should the sinner be allowed to live forever? I'm sure that Satan would be happy if such were the case. He does not wish to die. It is an unpleasant thing to die (and "unpleasant" is actually a mild word here).

Tom, do you believe there is no death penalty for sin? If you believe that sin does indeed carry a death penalty, do you view this death as pleasant? If not, then do you agree this is an accurate word to use in terms of this death penalty, that it is "imposed?"

I believe the word is accurate. However, it is "imposed" upon authority. It is not "arbitrary," since this word implies something done without principle or rule of law. The death which must come to sinners is precisely on account of the law. If there were no law, there would be no death penalty. The law must be fulfilled, and its penalty is therefore enforced or "imposed."


Tom,

I'm not understanding your question here. It seems as though at the root of it is a fundamental questioning of God and His reasons for doing things. I want no part in this.

Was it "individual discretion" of God to choose the flood waters to drown the ancient world? Why didn't He just send His death angel to lay them to rest peacefully in their sleep? Was there a law that required death by flood? No? Then you believe in an arbitrary God already, right? Well, I do not. I do not, and will not, allow you to cause me to follow you down that road of reasoning.

Here's my reasoning on it: 1) God's knowledge vastly exceeds ours, and His purposes are past finding out; 2) God knows what He is doing, and what He does is always just and fair; 3) if He were to lay the ancients to rest in their sleep, save for Noah and his family, how would those eight have cleaned up the mess?!; 4) the flood was to cleanse the earth of sinners, and it did its job effectively; and 5) the fires of hell are to go beyond what the flood did, in that they will not only cleanse the earth of sinners, they will cleanse it of sin, and of all traces of sin.

Fire is a logical choice. There is nothing in the law which specifies the means of death, is there? Then, would it matter to you which form the death should take? You would still think it "arbitrary" because it was chosen by God, instead of mandated by law? But then, did God choose His laws? Is God's law arbitrary? --You see why I do not wish to fall down this slippery slope? It is because this line of reasoning which begins to question God's purposes, lands us right where Satan is arguing--that God and His law are not fair.

Furthermore, God has promised "be sure your sins will find you out." He has promised that "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." He has promised to "give every man as his work shall be." If He were to fail to reward each one according to his/her sins, He would be the liar. This will not happen. Judgments will be received for each and every sin. If those sins are of such magnitude that someone burns for hours or days, who are we to squawk? This is only a fulfilling of the penalty of the law. In fact, if it were any other way, and the law were NOT being kept, we might THEN begin to call this "arbitrary."

Blessings to you,

Green Cochoa.

Crucifixion was an imposed, arbitrary form of punishment. If, as you say, the cross symbolizes the punishment of the wicked, then we are left with no other conclusion than it is an imposed, arbitrary form of punishment. Again, it is clear the long, lingering first death common to all is not the "wages of sin". Also, the fact sinners were required to slay animal sacrifices makes it clear the punishment of the wicked is an imposed, arbitrary form of punishment. That is, neither Jesus, nor animal sacrifices, died of natural causes. Someone, not something, killed them. Death was not spontaneous.