Then I suppose you think that the following quote, cited in my post #121911, applies to those who haven't been born again?

I have been shown that many are in the greatest danger of failing to perfect holiness in the fear of the Lord. Ministers are in danger of losing their own souls. Some who have preached to others will themselves be cast away because they have not perfected a Christian character. In their labor they do not save souls, and fail even to save their own. They do not see the importance of self-knowledge and self-control. They do not watch and pray, lest they enter into temptation. If they would watch, they would become acquainted with their weak points, where they are most likely to be assailed by temptation. With watchfulness and prayer their weakest points can be so guarded as to become their strongest points, and they can encounter temptation without being overcome. Every follower of Christ should daily examine himself, that he may become perfectly acquainted with his own conduct. There is with nearly all a neglect of self-examination. This neglect is positively dangerous in one who professes to be a mouthpiece for God, occupying the fearful, responsible position of receiving the words from God to give to His people. The daily conduct of such a person has great influence upon others. If he has any success in labor, he brings his converts to his own low standard, and it is seldom that they rise higher. Their minister's ways, his words, his gestures and manners, his faith, and his piety, are considered a sample of those of all Sabbathkeeping Adventists; and if they pattern after him who has taught them the truth, they think they are doing all their duty. {2T 511.1}

There is much in the conduct of a minister that he can improve. Many see and feel their lack, yet they seem to be ignorant of the influence they exert. They are conscious of their actions as they perform them, but suffer them to pass from their memory, and therefore do not reform. If ministers would make the actions of each day a subject of careful thought and deliberate review, with the object to become acquainted with their own habits of life, they would better know themselves. By a close scrutiny of their daily life under all circumstances they would know their own motives, the principles which actuate them. This daily review of our acts, to see whether conscience approves or condemns, is necessary for all who wish to arrive at the perfection of Christian character. Many acts which pass for good works, even deeds of benevolence, will, when closely investigated, be found to be prompted by wrong motives. Many receive applause for virtues which they do not possess. The Searcher of hearts inspects motives, and often the deeds which are highly applauded by men are recorded by Him as springing from selfish motives and base hypocrisy. Every act of our lives, whether excellent and praiseworthy or deserving of censure, is judged by the Searcher of hearts according to the motives which prompted it. {2T 511.2}

Even some ministers who are advocating the law of God have but little knowledge of themselves. They do not meditate, and investigate their motives. They do not see their errors and sins, because they do not, in sincerity and earnestness, take a view of their life, their acts, and their character, separate and as a whole, and compare them with the sacred and holy law of God. The claims of God's law are not really understood by them, and they are daily living in transgression of the spirit of that law which they profess to revere. "By the law," says Paul, "is the knowledge of sin." "I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." Some who labor in word and doctrine have not a practical understanding of the law of God and its holy claims, or of the atonement of Christ. They themselves need to be converted before they can convert sinners. {2T 512.1}

The faithful mirror which would reveal the defects in the character is neglected; therefore deformity and sin exist, and are apparent to others, if not understood by those who are in fault. The hateful sin of selfishness exists to a great degree, even in some who profess to be devoted to the work of God. If they would compare their character with His requirements, especially with the great standard, His holy, just, and good law, they would ascertain, if earnest, honest searchers, that they are fearfully wanting. But some are not willing to look far enough or deep enough to see the depravity of their own hearts. They are wanting in very many respects; yet they remain in willing ignorance of their guilt, and are so intent upon caring for their own interests that God has no care for them. {2T 512.2}

R: Then I suppose you think that the following quote, cited in my post #121911, applies to those who haven't been born again?
M: She says, "They themselves need to be converted before they can convert sinners."

Rosangela, nice quote. Thank you for sharing it. But I'm curious. Do you think it contradicts the following quotes and concepts:


In heaven, believers will continue the work begun here on earth, namely, “advancing from one stage of perfection to another”.

As you can see, overcoming our inherited and cultivated defects, weaknesses, and imperfections means ruling them with a sanctified will and mind, keeping them under subjection, preventing them from resurfacing and reining over us. It has nothing to do with discovering hitherto unknown cultivated sinful character traits and crucifying them. We must "deny self as did Christ." "Our natural propensities must be controlled, or we can never overcome as Christ overcame."

Do you agree this is what it means to "overcome" our defects, weaknesses, and imperfections?

R: Then I suppose you think that the following quote, cited in my post #121911, applies to those who haven't been born again?

M: She says, "They themselves need to be converted before they can convert sinners."

R: Mike, the fact that she is discussing that some need to be converted doesn't mean that she does not make statements of general application.

She says: "Every follower of Christ should daily examine himself, that he may become perfectly acquainted with his own conduct. ... This daily review of our acts, to see whether conscience approves or condemns, is necessary for all who wish to arrive at the perfection of Christian character. Many acts which pass for good works, even deeds of benevolence, will, when closely investigated, be found to be prompted by wrong motives."

M: In heaven, believers will continue the work begun here on earth, namely, “advancing from one stage of perfection to another”.

R: Mike, what EGW says is what Paul says – here we are perfect, yet we are not perfect. Which means, we are perfect only in Christ, through His imputed righteousness. In heaven we will be actually perfect.

T: What do you mean by "perfect"? Perfect in character? Or something else?

R: Yes, perfect in character.

M: As you can see, overcoming our inherited and cultivated defects, weaknesses, and imperfections means ruling them with a sanctified will and mind, keeping them under subjection, preventing them from resurfacing and reining over us. It has nothing to do with discovering hitherto unknown cultivated sinful character traits and crucifying them. We must "deny self as did Christ." "Our natural propensities must be controlled, or we can never overcome as Christ overcame." Do you agree this is what it means to "overcome" our defects, weaknesses, and imperfections?

R: Most of the time this is what happens. But I believe sometimes selfishness can escape our notice.

Dedication, do you think the thoughts I've been sharing contradict the quote you posted?

D: “So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience."--AA 560, 561 (1911).

M: Dedication, do you think the thoughts I've been sharing contradict the quote you posted?

D: If we have self to subdue all our life long, self is not yet utterly expelled, it continues to show itself in our motives and plans. You seem to think converted people no longer have any selfish motives in what they do.

God hates hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. {4BC 1154.9}God makes no compromise with sin. A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. {6BC 1101.3} This Word is so plain that none need go astray unless they allow themselves to be led by their hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. {UL 125.4}

We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. {FLB 140.4}

None of us need excuse our hasty temper, our misshapen characters, our selfishness, envy, jealousy, or any impurity of soul, body, or spirit. . . We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. {AG 235}

The question for us to consider is, Have we the attributes of Christ? Excuses are valueless. All circumstances, all appetites and passions, are to be servants to the God-fearing man, not rulers over him. The Christian is not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habits or tendency. {1MCP 146.1}

Those who put their trust in Christ are not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habit or tendency. Instead of being held in bondage to the lower nature, they are to rule every appetite and passion. God has not left us to battle with evil in our own finite strength. Whatever may be our inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong, we can overcome through the power that He is ready to impart. {AG 254.4}

It is because selfishness exists in our hearts that temptation has power over us. But when we behold the great love of God, selfishness appears to us in its hideous and repulsive character, and we desire to have it expelled from the soul. {MB 118.3}

If we represent the character of Christ, every particle of selfishness must be expelled from the soul. {AH 370.1} Selfishness must be expelled from the soul. The heart must be purified from all envy, all evil surmising. . . The character of God's human agencies must be a transcript of the character of their Saviour. {MM 46.1} We need to feel the vivifying influence of the Holy Spirit as the disciples felt it on the day of Pentecost. . . Selfishness was expelled from the heart. {RC 241.7}

The patchwork religion is not of the least value with God. He requires the whole heart. No part of it is to be reserved for the development of hereditary or cultivated tendencies to evil. To be harsh, to be severe, too self-important, selfish, to look out for one's own selfish interest and yet be zealous that others shall deal unselfishly is a religion which is an abomination to God. Many have just such an experience daily, but it is a misrepresentation of the character of Christ (Letter 31a, 1894). {6BC 1101.6}

The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. {Mar 237.1}

People who are taught that all self must be expelled in order to be "fit for heaven" tend to end up in rather a sorry state. It's not so clear where selfish motives start and end. Yes, someone said the Holy Spirit makes it plain. True the Holy Spirit leads us step by step in overcoming. However, the conscience can play tricks on us. Some may sear their conscience by disobedience, but there is also the over active conscience where a person feels guilty about everything that brings any pleasure. Guilty if they should buy something nice for themselves, guilty if they take a vacation, guilty if they take time out for themselves, guilty, guilty, guilty -- What happens then is they resent other people who do enjoy life, and end up being very critical of everyone even over the most innocent of pleasures (when in actuality they are suffering from a mixture of jealousy and self righteousness}.

Whatever your temperament may be, whatever your hereditary and cultivated tendencies may be, there is a character to be formed after the divine pattern. We have no excuse for retaining our own mold and superscription of nature, for Christ has died that we may have His mold and His superscription. We cannot retain our own self and be filled with the fullness of God. We must be emptied of self. If heaven is gained by us at last, it will be only through the renunciation of self and in receiving the mind, the spirit, and the will of Christ Jesus. . . . {HP 155.3}

Are we willing to pay the price for eternal life? Are we ready to sit down and count the cost, whether heaven is worth such a sacrifice as to die to self and let our will be bent and fashioned into perfect conformity with the will of God? Until this shall be, the transforming grace of God will not be experienced by us. {HP 155.4}

Just as soon as we present our emptied nature to the Lord Jesus and His cause, He will supply the vacuum by His Holy Spirit. We can then believe He will give us of His fullness. He does not want us to perish. We do not want more of God any more urgently than He wants all that there is of us to be consecrated to His service. {HP 155.5}

My point in all this is -- When we focus on "being perfect" with not even a trace of sin in our lives, in order to be "fit for heaven" we end up losing the graces of Christ, not gaining them.

The Lord says, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves." This is our work. {DA 314.1} Determine to know the worst of your case. Ascertain if you have an inheritance on high. Deal truly with your own soul. Remember that a church without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing will Jesus present to his Father. {2SG 264.1}

We are to compare our characters with the infallible standard of God's law. In order to do this, we must search the Scriptures, measuring our attainments by the word of God. . . In order to understand your condition, it is necessary to study the Bible, and to watch unto prayer. . . Let not those who are ignorant remain in ignorance. They cannot remain in ignorance, and meet the mind of God. {FE 214.1}

God forbid that at this important hour we should be so engrossed with other matters as to give no time to serious, candid, critical self-examination! Let things of minor consequence be put in the background, and let us now bring to the front the things which concern our eternal interests. {LHU 15.2}

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith" (2 Cor. 13:5). Some conscientious souls, on reading this, immediately begin to criticize their every feeling and emotion. But this is not correct self-examination. The feelings, whether encouraging or discouraging, should not be made the test of the spiritual condition. By God's Word we are to determine our true standing before Him. Many are bewildered on this point. When they are happy and joyous, they think that they are accepted of God. When a change comes, and they feel depressed, they think that God has forsaken them. {HP 131.3}

Many are sensible of their great deficiency, and they read, and pray, and resolve, and yet make no progress. They seem to be powerless to resist temptation. The reason is, they do not go deep enough. They do not seek for a thorough conversion of the soul, that the streams which issue from it may be pure, and the deportment may testify that Christ reigns within. All defects of character originate in the heart. Pride, vanity, evil temper, and covetousness proceed from the carnal heart unrenewed by the grace of Christ. If the heart is refined, softened, and ennobled, the words and actions will testify to the fact. When the soul has been entirely surrendered to God, there will be a firm reliance upon His promises, and earnest prayer and determined effort to control the words and actions. {OHC 336.4}

We are perfect IN CHRIST, when we believe and follow Him, obeying in all things as we have understanding. It is His righteousness, not ours that makes us perfect. We are to walk with Him in humble obedience. But anyone who thinks they have no more traces of sin in their lives, that there is nothing that the Holy Spirit has not yet revealed, are greatly deceiving themselves.

Genuine conversion is needed, not once in years, but daily. This conversion brings man into a new relation with God. Old things, his natural passions and hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong, pass away, and he is renewed and sanctified. But this work must be continual; for as long as Satan exists, he will make an effort to carry on his work. He who strives to serve God will encounter a strong undercurrent of wrong. His heart needs to be barricaded by constant watchfulness and prayer, or else the embankment will give way; and like a millstream, the undercurrent of wrong will sweep away the safeguard. No renewed heart can be kept in a condition of sweetness without the daily application of the salt of the Word. Divine grace must be received daily, or no man will stay converted. {OHC 215.2}

Those who become followers of Christ find that new motives of action are supplied, new thoughts arise, and new actions must result. But they can make advancement only through conflict; for there is an enemy who ever contends against them, presenting temptations to cause the soul to doubt and sin. There are hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil that must be overcome. Appetite and passion must be brought under the control of the Holy Spirit. There is no end to the warfare this side of eternity. But while there are constant battles to fight, there are also precious victories to gain; and the triumph over self and sin is of more value than the mind can estimate. {CT 20.2}

The leaven hidden in the flour works invisibly to bring the whole mass under its leavening process; so the leaven of truth works secretly, silently, steadily, to transform the soul. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. A new standard of character is set up--the life of Christ. The mind is changed; the faculties are roused to action in new lines. Man is not endowed with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified. The conscience is awakened. We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God. {COL 98.3}

Often the question arises, Why, then, are there so many, claiming to believe God's word, in whom there is not seen a reformation in words, in spirit, and in character? Why are there so many who cannot bear opposition to their purposes and plans, who manifest an unholy temper, and whose words are harsh, overbearing, and passionate? There is seen in their lives the same love of self, the same selfish indulgence, the same temper and hasty speech, that is seen in the life of the worldling. There is the same sensitive pride, the same yielding to natural inclination, the same perversity of character, as if the truth were wholly unknown to them. The reason is that they are not converted. They have not hidden the leaven of truth in the heart. It has not had opportunity to do its work. Their natural and cultivated tendencies to evil have not been submitted to its transforming power. Their lives reveal the absence of the grace of Christ, an unbelief in His power to transform the character. {COL 99.1}

The leaven of truth, working inwardly will be revealed in the life. The heart must be cleansed from all impurity, man must be fitted with traits of character that will enable him to do service for God in any line. The process is invisible by which the leaven changes the mass of meal into which it has been introduced, but it works until the meal is converted into bread. So must the Spirit of God work a radical change. New faculties are not supplied, but a thorough change is made in the employment of those faculties. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives are implanted. But while every faculty is regenerated, man does not lose his identity. {TDG 186.1}