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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Tom]
#121974
12/01/09 07:59 PM
12/01/09 07:59 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The following passage is pertinent:
By a momentary act of will you may place yourself in the power of Satan, but it will require more than a momentary act of will to break his fetters and reach for a higher, holier life. The purpose may be formed, the work begun, but its accomplishment will require toil, time, and perseverance, patience, and sacrifice. (ML 322)
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Mountain Man]
#121975
12/01/09 08:01 PM
12/01/09 08:01 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, here ar some interesting insights regarding "inborn": The mind is to be disciplined, educated, trained; for we are to do service for God in ways that are not in harmony with inborn inclination. There are hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil that must be overcome. (8T 314)
The voice of duty is the voice of God,--an inborn, heaven-sent guide,--and the Lord will not be trifled with upon these subjects. He who disregards the light which God has given in regard to the preservation of health, revolts against his own good and refuses to obey the One who is working for his best good. {CH 562.2} The youth have an inborn love of liberty; they desire freedom; and they need to understand that these inestimable blessings are to be enjoyed only in obedience to the law of God. This law is the preserver of true freedom and liberty. It points out and prohibits those things that degrade and enslave, and thus to the obedient it affords protection from the power of evil. {Ed 291.2}
Their discipline has been defective; the soul culture has not been carried forward from one advance to another; inborn tendencies have not been restrained, but have degraded the soul. For all the natural weaknesses Jesus has made ample provision, that they may be overcome through His grace. If not overcome, the weakness will become a tyrant, a conqueror, to overcome them, and the heavenly light will become beclouded and extinguished. {TSB 91.1}
And the human agent who is a partaker of the divine nature will love as Christ loves, will work as Christ worked. There will be an inborn compassion and sympathy which will not fail or be discouraged. {WM 83.1} How does this compare to "inbred"?
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Tom]
#121976
12/01/09 08:24 PM
12/01/09 08:24 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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M: You seem to be suggesting that sinning does not forfeit salvation, that refusing the gift of repentance is what cancels the privileges of salvation.
R: Yes, otherwise salvation would be just like a yo-yo, as James said, or like a light switch, as you said. I see it more as an umbrella, and losing salvation as stepping out from under the umbrella by refusing to repent. Christ's righteousness still covers you until you have the opportunity to repent.
T: Moses would be a good example. Did he lose his salvation when he lost his temper and struck the rock? Does sinning happen under the umbrella? Or, does it happen the moment we step out from under it? Can we commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus? For example, can we get angry at our kids and smack them while abiding in Jesus? Is anger and smacking kids the fruit of abiding in the Vine? The following insights are helpful: We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. We have only to neglect to ally ourselves with the kingdom of light. If we do not co-operate with the heavenly agencies, Satan will take possession of the heart, and will make it his abiding place. {DA 324.1}
Until the heart is surrendered unconditionally to God, the human agent is not abiding in the True Vine, and cannot flourish in the Vine, and bear rich clusters of fruit. God will not make the slightest compromise with sin. If He could have done this, Christ need not have come to our world to suffer and die. No conversion is genuine which does not change both the character and the conduct of those who accept the truth. {5BC 1144.2}
Our professions are worthless unless we abide in Christ; for we cannot be living branches unless the vital qualities of the Vine abound in us. In the genuine Christian the characteristics of his Master will appear, and when we reflect the graces of Christ in our lives and characters, the Father loves us as He loves His Son.{SD 288.4}
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Mountain Man]
#121980
12/01/09 09:06 PM
12/01/09 09:06 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Resisting sin, self, and Satan, and reproducing the character of Christ is not an easy matter. Ellen put it this way:
It is no easy matter to gain the priceless treasure of eternal life. {Mar 47.3}
To resist Satan’s desires is no easy task. It demands a firm hold of the divine nature from beginning to end, or it cannot be done. (1SM 342)
But it is not an easy matter to overcome hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. Self is masterful, and strives for the victory. But to “him that overcometh” the promises are given. The Lord presents the right way, but He compels no one to obey. He leaves those to whom He has given the light to receive or despise it, but their course of action is followed by sure results. Cause must produce effect. (3SM 289)
The gaining of eternal life is no easy thing. By living faith we are to keep on reaching forward, ascending the ladder round by round, seeing and taking the necessary steps; and yet we must understand that not one holy thought, not one unselfish act, can be originated in self. It is only through Christ that there can be any virtue in humanity. . . . But while we can do nothing without Him, we have something to do in connection with Him. At no time must we relax our spiritual vigilance, for we are hanging, as it were, between heaven and earth. We must cling to Christ, climb up by Christ, become laborers together with Him in the saving of our souls. {TMK 21.5}
I was shown that Satan cannot control minds unless they are yielded to his control. Those who depart from the right are in serious danger now. They separate themselves from God and from the watch-care of the angels of God, and Satan, ever upon the watch to destroy souls, begins to present to such his deceptions, and they are in the utmost peril. And if they see and try to resist the powers of darkness and to free themselves from Satan's snare, it is not an easy matter. They have ventured on Satan's ground, and he claims them. He will not hesitate to engage all his energies, and call to his aid all his evil host to wrest a single human being from the hand of Christ. {MYP 60.1}
Those who have tempted the devil to tempt them will have to make desperate efforts to free themselves from his power. When they begin to work for themselves, then angels of God whom they have grieved will come to their rescue. Satan and his angels are unwilling to lose their prey. They contend and battle with the holy angels, and the conflict is severe. And if those who have erred continue to plead, and in deep humility confess their wrongs, angels who excel in strength will prevail and wrench them from the power of the evil angels. {MYP 60.2}
The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God and being clothed with humility, possessing that love that is pure, peaceable, and easy to be entreated, full of gentleness and good fruits, is not an easy attainment. And yet it is his privilege and his duty to be a perfect overcomer here. The soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in knowledge and true holiness. {3T 106.2}
By a momentary act of will you may place yourself in the power of Satan, but it will require more than a momentary act of will to break his fetters and reach for a higher, holier life. The purpose may be formed, the work begun, but its accomplishment will require toil, time, and perseverance, patience, and sacrifice. (ML 322)
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Mountain Man]
#121983
12/01/09 10:26 PM
12/01/09 10:26 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding "inborn," I see two instances. The first one speaks of an inborn love of freedom. I'm not sure what she had in mind there. I would lean toward here not having a technical meaning in mind, but implying something like this is a normal thing to expect.
In the second usage, she speaks of inborn tendencies which have not been restrained, immediately followed by "natural weaknesses." This usage sounds to me like a technical one, where she has in mind hereditary tendencies.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Tom]
#121984
12/01/09 10:30 PM
12/01/09 10:30 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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M: You seem to be suggesting that sinning does not forfeit salvation, that refusing the gift of repentance is what cancels the privileges of salvation.
R: Yes, otherwise salvation would be just like a yo-yo, as James said, or like a light switch, as you said. I see it more as an umbrella, and losing salvation as stepping out from under the umbrella by refusing to repent. Christ's righteousness still covers you until you have the opportunity to repent.
T: Moses would be a good example. Did he lose his salvation when he lost his temper and struck the rock?
MM:Does sinning happen under the umbrella? Or, does it happen the moment we step out from under it? Can we commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus? For example, can we get angry at our kids and smack them while abiding in Jesus? Is anger and smacking kids the fruit of abiding in the Vine? The following insights are helpful: Are you saying "yes"?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Mountain Man]
#121989
12/02/09 06:21 AM
12/02/09 06:21 AM
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OP
Charter Member Active Member 2012
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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James, just in case I didn't answer your question, here it is - Salvation is more like a light switch. We turn it on and off when we consciously choose to abide in Jesus and when we consciously refuse to abide in Jesus. Salvation is active while we are consciously abiding in Jesus. Otherwise, while we are consciously refusing to abide in Jesus, salvation is on standby. What is abiding in Jesus? Can we sin while we abide in Jesus? Are we lost the moment we sinned, because we are no longer abiding in Jesus? I see my self like a boat. I have anchored my anchor (faith) in Jesus, but the boat (I my self) some times faced heavy swells, strong wind or current (world temptation / desires of the flesh)and she must slacken / lengthen her chain in order her anchor would not be drag away. So, some times the boat is far away floating, drag by the wind, current and swells, but not lost because her anchor (faith)is still fix to the ground (Jesus). And one day, she will heave her chain and closing back to her anchor, entering again the relationship with Jesus. We may sinned, we may fall from time to time, but as long as we repent and ask God forgiveness, he would forgive us, and we are still a just and righteous person. 1 John 1:8-10: 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. In His love
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Tom]
#121993
12/02/09 04:26 PM
12/02/09 04:26 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Regarding "inborn," I see two instances. The first one speaks of an inborn love of freedom. I'm not sure what she had in mind there. I would lean toward here not having a technical meaning in mind, but implying something like this is a normal thing to expect.
In the second usage, she speaks of inborn tendencies which have not been restrained, immediately followed by "natural weaknesses." This usage sounds to me like a technical one, where she has in mind hereditary tendencies. Is the technical one different than her "inbred" statements?
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Tom]
#121994
12/02/09 04:31 PM
12/02/09 04:31 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: You seem to be suggesting that sinning does not forfeit salvation, that refusing the gift of repentance is what cancels the privileges of salvation.
R: Yes, otherwise salvation would be just like a yo-yo, as James said, or like a light switch, as you said. I see it more as an umbrella, and losing salvation as stepping out from under the umbrella by refusing to repent. Christ's righteousness still covers you until you have the opportunity to repent.
T: Moses would be a good example. Did he lose his salvation when he lost his temper and struck the rock?
M: Does sinning happen under the umbrella? Or, does it happen the moment we step out from under it? Can we commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus? For example, can we get angry at our kids and smack them while abiding in Jesus? Is anger and smacking kids the fruit of abiding in the Vine?
T: Are you saying "yes"? I do not think Moses was abiding in Jesus when he struck the rock in anger. Do you agree? Or, do you think the fruit of abiding in Jesus includes sinning?
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Re: I have some questions
[Re: Mountain Man]
#121995
12/02/09 04:36 PM
12/02/09 04:36 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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James, did you read this post? It first appeared on the previous page. M: James, just in case I didn't answer your question, here it is - Salvation is more like a light switch. We turn it on and off when we consciously choose to abide in Jesus and when we consciously refuse to abide in Jesus. Salvation is active while we are consciously abiding in Jesus. Otherwise, while we are consciously refusing to abide in Jesus, salvation is on standby.
J: OK, now please tell me what is maturing in the fruit of the Spirit? A newborn believer is premature in the fruit of the Spirit compared to people you believe has reach the state of sinless. But what is the difference between them? I only see that both are justified people by their faith. Both are FIT for heaven. And what else we need, rather than God justify us?
M: Jesus demonstrated growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit as He progressed from childhood to manhood. As you know, such development does not involve outgrowing sinful habits. Instead, it involves recognizing and resisting sin, self, and Satan. It involves subduing, submitting, and subjecting hereditary tendencies to wrong to a sanctified will and mind. More than this, though, it involves becoming more and more like God (as opposed to becoming less and less like Satan). Newborn believers begin perfect or complete in Christ. And then they spend the rest of eternity maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. The difference between babes in Christ and seasoned saints is maturity not imperfection. Both are fit for heaven. They are justified and sanctified, both of which are requirements of salvation.
1 Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious. 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
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