Rosangela, are you saying no one will obtain perfection of character in this life?

Perhaps the 144,000 will obtain it?
Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect," so perfection is possible, but who has attained it?

Christ presents before us the highest perfection of Christian character, which throughout our lifetime we should aim to reach. . . . Concerning this perfection Paul writes: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after. . . . I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12-15). . . . {TMK 130.2}

All our sinful tendencies of character are removed.


Me. You. All of us.

"This daily review of our acts, to see whether conscience approves or condemns, is necessary for all who wish to arrive at the perfection of Christian character. Many acts which pass for good works, even deeds of benevolence, will, when closely investigated, be found to be prompted by wrong motives."

By the way, while we are at it, this is what you said in the other thread:


Don't we sin by omission?

You seem to be overlooking what Ellen wrote about the progressive nature of perfection. Attaining unto perfection is an eternal process. No one will reach a point where they can no longer become more perfect. “Even the most perfect Christian may increase continually in the knowledge and love of God. (ML 249) This “work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186) “And in heaven we are continually to improve. (COL 332)

This insight is significant. It means no matter how perfect we are we can always improve. You seem to think all such improvement involves sin; whereas I believe it involves righteousness. We become more and more righteous not less and less sinful. “The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. (ML 250)

You haven’t commented on this insight. Would you mind?


In what sense do "sinful tendencies" make people sinful and imperfect? Do they make people guilty of sin? When does Jesus remove them? And, how does He do it? Also, will He do it for the 144,000 while they are alive? If so, will He do it before probation closes?


It’s difficult to divorce this passage from its context. She isn’t speaking in a vacuum. The context is important. Here it is:


Ellen explains why the actions of certain people are prompted by wrong motives. She also makes it clear they are conscious of their selfishness and sinfulness but do not care enough to do anything about it.

1. “The hateful sin of selfishness exists to a great degree, even in some who profess to be devoted to the work of God.”

2. They “are not willing to look far enough or deep enough to see the depravity of their own hearts. . . they remain in willing ignorance of their guilt . . . [they] neglect to look at themselves in the mirror which reveals the defects in the character; therefore deformity and sin exist”.

3. Their actions are “prompted by wrong motives . . . springing from selfishness and base hypocrisy”. “They are conscious of their actions as they perform them, but suffer them to pass from their memory, and therefore do not reform.”

In contrast to the careless, indifferent sinners described above, Ellen had the following to say about sincere, conscientious believers.

4. “If they would compare their character with His requirements, especially with the great standard, God's holy law, they would ascertain, if earnest, honest searchers, that they are fearfully wanting.”

5. “He who understands well his own character, who is acquainted with the sin that most easily besets him, and the temptations that are the most likely to overcome him, should not expose himself needlessly, and invite temptation by placing himself on the enemy's ground. If duty calls him where circumstances are not favorable, he will have special help from God, and can thus go fully girded for a conflict with the enemy.”

6. “Self-knowledge will save many from falling into grievous temptations, and prevent many an inglorious defeat. In order to become acquainted with ourselves, it is essential that we faithfully investigate the motives and principles of our conduct, comparing our actions with the standard of duty revealed in God's word.”

They faithfully “investigate” their motives and conduct, “comparing” them to the Word of God. As a result, they are conscious of the ways in which they are “fearfully wanting”. They “understand well” their own character and are “acquainted” with the sin that most easily besets them and the “temptations” that are the most likely to "overcome” them. Therefore, they are “fully girded for a conflict with the enemy” and successfully avoid “falling into grievous temptations”. “Self-knowledge” prevents them from experiencing “an inglorious defeat”.


Do thoroughly converted Christians, believers who are obeying and observing “all things whatsoever” Jesus commanded, sin without realizing it? Since they are aware of everything Jesus expects of them, how can they omit something without realizing it? Do you have an example in mind? Please keep in mind I'm talking about "thoroughly converted Christians, believers who are obeying and observing 'all things whatsoever' Jesus commanded".

Also, what do you think about Ellen's description of people who are "not yet perfect"? Again, her description is "perfect love, perfect obedience, perfect conformity to the will of God". Here's the context of the quote:

I'm asking you this because from your earlier comment it sounds like you were saying no one on this earth would be perfect, only in heaven. So if perfect means perfect in character, then no one here would obtain perfection in character, including the 144,000.

Another question that comes to mind is if no one is perfect in character here, but in heaven every one is, then it must follow that the character changes in between the time one dies and one is resurrected, right? It seems to me the only way out of this seeming dilemma (since we know the character won't change) is that hereditary tendencies must not be included in terms of what comprises a perfect character. Otherwise it seems to me EGW would have been contradicting herself by saying that the character doesn't change when one dies.

To state it another way, if the character does not change at death, and people have perfect characters in heaven, then they must have perfect characters at the moment of death. So the thief on the cross would have had a perfect character.

This seems to logically follow.

However, EGW seems to speak of perfection of character in a special way when applied to the 144,000 (e.g., the stand before God without a Mediator).

I agree with this. There's an EGW statement where she laments how unlike the Saviour she is. I can't remember it well enough to find.

Tom, were you just asking Rosangela questions? Or, do you believe the thief died with a perfect character? Also, is being unlike Jesus, in the sense Ellen spoke of, the same as sinning without realizing it?

I was asking Rosangela questions. Also, I was doing some thinking out loud.

It seems to me that words like "salvation," "saved," and "perfection" are used differently depending on the context, and we run into contradictions if we're not careful about this.

Mike, I’ve quoted a series of passages which say that we are imperfect, that we should strive to reach perfection of character, that we should seek daily to remove the blemishes in our character. Now, if we are imperfect, how is it that we advance from one stage of perfection to another?
It’s obvious that Ellen White, as Tom pointed out, is using the word “perfection” in a relative sense, namely, perfection in Christ through His imputed righteousness, not actual perfection, which is what we will have in the world to come.


“Imperfection of character is sin” (COL 330.2), as Arnold pointed out previously. If, and until, it is unconscious, Christ’s sacrifice makes provision for it. Jesus removes our sinful tendencies as fast as we are able to advance with Him. How He does it? One way seems to be by providing the power for us to overcome them when we are willing to put them away. It seems He will do this completely with the 144,000 here on earth; I’m not sure if this will entirely happen before probation closes.

“But they [the redeemed] will associate with those who have overcome Satan and his devices, and through divine aid have formed perfect characters. Every sinful tendency, every imperfection that afflicts them here, has been removed by the blood of Christ; and the excellence and brightness of his glory, far exceeding the brightness of the sun in its meridian splendor, is imparted to them. And the moral beauty, the perfection of his character, shines through them, in worth far exceeding this outward splendor. They are without fault around the great white throne, sharing the dignity and privileges of the angels. {ST, April 3, 1884 par. 9}


?????
Are you saying the people described in in your first paragraph and the people described in your second paragraph belong to the same group?

In the EGW paragraph in question she is referring to “all who wish to arrive at the perfection of Christian character.” Are you saying these are conscious of their selfishness and sinfulness but do not care enough to do anything about it? I'm not following your reasoning.


Me (I consider myself a converted Christian). I sometimes have wrong feelings. On analyzing these feelings, not always can I see immediately what is behind them. Sometimes it takes time for God to show me the wrong motives which are behind the wrong feelings, so I can repent of them, confess them and ask God to give me power to overcome them.


Do you consider you have perfect love to God and to your fellow men? If not, how aren’t you sinning by omission?