By "fulfilling the prophecy" do you mean coming to its end point?

The three angel's messages will continue to be preached till probation closes, (indeed swelling into a loud cry). However, they started around 1844 and we are to be preaching them NOW. That is all part of "fulfilling the prophecy" even though the completion is still future.

When the saints are "sealed" probation will be closed -- it will be rather late to start preaching don't you think?



In looking at Revelation 14 we need to be aware of a style of writing.
Much confusion comes from believing each seqment is written in sequential order of the next seqment.

Yet, look closely --
John keeps giving us pictures of heaven, and then returns to the scenes on earth that take place prior to the second coming.
If we don't recognize this we will have the saints in heaven many times before the second coming.

Rev. 7 -- the saints are pictured in heaven prior to the seventh seal.

Rev. 14 -- begins with a picture of the 144,000
on Mt. Zion (in heaven singing a new song and playing harps before the throne and before the 24 elders) this depiction is given prior to the account of the judgment calls of the three angels messages (and the next three angels which are also in that chapter)

Rev. 15:2 -- we see a picture of the saints on the sea of glass prior to the account of the pouring out of the seven plagues.

John keeps giving us a glimpse of the END
before commenting on the terrible things that would happen on earth just before the end.

Thus it appears the depiction of the 144,000 prior to the account of six angels and their messages of judgment in chapter 14 give the picture of victory for the faithful before giving the warnings of destruction for the worshipers of the beast.

It says nothing about the 144,000 now going forth to preach -- it says they are redeemed from the earth before the throne.

It appears all preaching is already finished at that point.

Dedication, I haven't read all the thread, but did MM or anyone point out that the statement by Ellen White on the thunders in 7 SDABC, 971 says the thunders 'relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order'.

She places all seven in the future. True, she puts them in the past as well, but if she meant us in the above phrase where she puts them in the future to understand that they were in the future in relation to John the way of expressing that thought is to use the word 'would' rather than 'will' - 'these relate to future events which would be disclosed . . .' Further on in the same quote we see that she uses that tense in applying the prophecy to the Millerites, which suggests she is carefullly selecting her tenses here and throughout the passage. Her use of tenses therefore should be carefully noted.

And she also gives the specific period when the thunders have sounded and are to sound in the future; she says they sound during the first and second angel's messages.



Also, notice that she says the thunders are 'events', suggesting that they can't be messages.

We all have our own views of course and I don't mean to urge mine on you of the forum, but for now, I'd say I'm content with the view that the thunders are still sealed and still future. There was a partial fulfilment in the past with the early Adventists, but for us, they are still sealed. I know I'm in the minority on this view.

Dedication, thank you for sharing those interesting observations. I am learning lots studying with you. I was under the impression, though, that the 144,000 will be numbered and sealed gradually throughout the MOB crisis, which would be how and why the 3AMs swell to a Loud Cry. What do you think?

Mark, it makes sense to me that the seven thunders John saw in prophecy were fulfilled between 1842 and 1844. But it also makes sense to me that, as you said, they will be fulfilled again. But I suspect we will be ignorant of them as were the Millerites. Did Ellen White describe in detail how each of the seven thunders played out during the Millerite Movement?

Before going on I think I need to know what you believe the MOB crises is?

Yes, the quotes were posted several time.
Personally I do NOT see a dual application but a sequential application.
To "thunder" usually implies judgment.
Thus I believe the thunders describe the sequence of judgments that wrap up the end times.

As you noted, EGW seems to place thunders both in her day as well as the future.
Like the "seals" the thunders cover a larger time period than happening "all at once".
She definitely links thunders as beginning in the 1844 movement with the 1st and 2nd angel's proclamations.
That's when God's judgment began (as in investigative judgment) and of course executive judgment is yet future.





Yes, the proclamation of the 1st angel's message announced an EVENT -- "the hour of His judgement has come".
That is the first thunder --
The messages all deal with events
The thunders are the events

Go back and read the paragraph introducing the seven thunders:
"The mighty angel who instructed John was no less a personage than Jesus Christ. Setting His right foot on the sea, and His left upon the dry land, shows the part which He is acting in the closing scenes of the great controversy with Satan."

So what part is Christ acting in the closing scenes of the great Controversy?

The TIME OF THE END began in 1844
The Judgement began in 1844.
That's when Christ took His place in the Most Holy Place to judge.

Personally I think Adventists have lost the meaning of the investigative judgment which entails the "FINISHING of the mystery of God".

The call to "come out" into true worship while the rest of the world descends into spiritualistic worship also started back around 1844.

The standard of judgment was brought into full light around 1844 -- the ark of the covenant was seen containing the same ten commandments God spoke with thunder thousands of years earlier.

So I believe the thunders deliniate the sequence of God's judgments.

It covers not just the first angels message (which announces the beginning of the judgment, the IJ, which must take place before Christ comes) but also the other judgments along the way.

The third angel's message also announces an event --
the falling of the plagues. It's message is a strong warning which, if not heeded will find the world suffering in a very real EVENT, which is the falling of the plagues.

The three angel's messages are all about judgment but they are also warnings for they are given before "the mystery of God is finished" and probation is still open.

Rev.14 continues with other angels
Thunders that roll after probation closes --
--announcing Christ's coming with a sickle in hand to harvest the earth. (2nd coming)
--next announcing the final battle when all that ever lived receive their judgment and blood reaches up to the horses bridles
This is the last judgment -- the last judgment event --

I suspect the crisis will begin when Sunday laws are enforced. When Sabbath-keepers must choose between the laws of man and the laws of God the crisis will be well under way.

But won't it be too late to start sounding the three angels message then?

Personally I don't think the Sunday laws will come in till well after the crises has begun.

The following is already being done today:

".. the claim that the fast-spreading corruption is largely attributable to the desecration of the so-called "Christian sabbath" and that the enforcement of Sunday observance would greatly improve the morals of society. This claim is especially urged in America, where the doctrine of the true Sabbath has been most widely preached."--GC 587 (1911).

Moral majority, papists and others are saying this.

However, they can't do much about it.
They need a crises.

And we know that it will be some major catastrophies that bring it in:

" From the pulpits of the popular churches will be heard the statement that the world is being punished because Sunday is not honored as it should be. And it will require no great stretch of imagination for men to believe this. They are guided by the enemy, and therefore they reach conclusions which are entirely false. {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 9}

I am really quite concerned that Adventists have been sort of lulled to sleep, waiting for the alarm of a Sunday law. And too often reworking the prophecies to put them in the future, when prophecy shows the "time of the end" is already here.

The last climatic events will be rapid -- we need to be sealed before the full blast hits.

One writer (can't remember who) wrote that Satan is too smart to bring in the Sunday laws in the beginning of the time of the end. He knows that Adventists would wake up and do damage to his agenda. So he works to gradually set up all forces, deceptions, erode the constitution and bring in a government that can turn tyrannical in day, bring in spiritism and make it sound like revival, etc. Then when the Sunday laws come they will spring like a trap.

Don't wait till the Sunday laws -- by then it may be way too late.

That's why God gave us the message at the beginning of the "time of the end".

I've found that generally those who allow for future applications have greater urgency in their message and their appeal to be prepared than those who take a purely historical approach.

The SOP says that it is when we as a church understand the end time prophecises of Daniel and Revelation better that we'll see a great revival. If the truths presented by say Uriah Smith were enough to enlighten and revive the church, why urge us to study and search for greater light.

Ellen White herself knew much more about the prophecies that we give her credit for. There are many statements in her writings showing greater understanding and insight than her peers. Historicists and in fact all of us unfortunately tend to ignore them or interpret them to fit our views. So she repeated urges us to come to scripture with a prayerful attitude and opened mind.

Saying Sunday Laws will come is not as convincing as saying Sundays Laws are here. Ellen White wrote:

“Heretofore those who presented the truths of the third angel's message have often been regarded as mere alarmists. Their predictions that religious intolerance would gain control in the United States, that church and state would unite to persecute those who keep the commandments of God, have been pronounced groundless and absurd. It has been confidently declared that this land could never become other than what it has been--the defender of religious freedom. But as the question of enforcing Sunday observance is widely agitated, the event so long doubted and disbelieved is seen to be approaching, and the third message will produce an effect which it could not have had before. {GC 605.3}


The crisis I’m referring to is the Sunday Law Crisis. Ellen White wrote:

“Those who are making an effort to change the Constitution and secure a law enforcing Sunday observance little realize what will be the result. A crisis is just upon us.--5T 711, 753 (1889). {LDE 126.2}

“A great crisis awaits the people of God. A crisis awaits the world. The most momentous struggle of all the ages is just before us. . . . The question of enforcing Sunday observance has become one of national interest and importance. We well know what the result of this movement will be. But are we ready for the issue? Have we faithfully discharged the duty which God has committed to us of giving the people warning of the danger before them? . . . {Mar 131.1}

“In a Sunday law there is possibility for great suffering to those who observe the seventh day. The working out of Satan's plans will bring persecution to the people of God. But the faithful servants of God need not fear the outcome of the conflict. If they will follow the pattern set for them in the life of Christ, if they will be true to the requirements of God, their reward will be eternal life, a life that measures with the life of God. {2SM 375.1}


I had no idea pastors and politicians are citing natural and manmade disasters as evidence God is upset because people are desecrating the Sunday. Actually, I’ve heard of obscure sources saying as much, the Special Alerts Charles Wheeling referenced back in the ‘80s, but even Evangelicals dismissed it as absurd. Do you know of any Headline News type of reports?