No, I don't. You should have read the context. My statements were predicated by the belief that nothing runs without God. Tom was the one who seemed to suggest otherwise.

??

I've often quoted the following:



You should be well aware of this, as you've been active in the threads where I've posted this. Having posted this so many times, I could hardly believe what you're suggesting.

While I strongly disagree with your take on the judgment, I don't ascribe any such motives to you. I disagree with your ideas, and leave it at that. Isn't that preferable?

In the quote you presented, you put in bold the following:



How is there destiny decided? Is it not by the decisions they have made which set their character? Isn't the whole point of the passage that the lost have done this themselves, that God would make them happy if He could, but He can't because they have their characters have been set?

Here's the paragraph which includes the other part you put in bold:



Notice it says:



This is also the context of the passage, that it is "too late" to "turn the current of their thoughts in the opposite direction." God would make them happy if he could do so in accordance with the laws of his government and the justice of his character, but He can't, which is a sad day for all.



This is a mischaracterization of the position. The judgments are from God, but the mechanism is in accordance with His character. For example:



Notice these are referred to as "the judgments of God," NOT "the judgments of the enemy," even though the mechanism is that which I've been suggesting.

By force? Or by the presentation of evidence?



It depends upon what happens. Regarding people being set on fire, we read:



Also I must question your use of words. "Feign" is pejorative. No one is "feigning" anything here.

All I've said is that our reason is to be involved rather than bypassed. This has been my whole point.



How do we know if the voice is the voice of God? Isn't Satan able to counterfeit God's voice? Don't we need to evaluate the voice to see if it's according "to the law and to the testimony"? Doesn't this involve the use of reason?



Will God ask us to do something unreasonable? Haven't we just read that He gives us evidence for everything He wants us to believe? If this is the case, the only way we can act contrary to His will is to act contrary to that which is reasonable. God gives us evidence, and desires that we candidly investigate it, in the sure knowledge that if we do so we will see for ourselves that what He wishes us to do is reasonable.



I can't think of any examples of where this would apply to something which involves our doing God's will. I can see this applying into areas of speculation.

I mentioned that perfume diffuses molecules according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics, so it does seem my thinking has been over-generalized on this subject. I'd say there are some aspects to the law which are dependent upon sin, however, such as inefficiencies (e.g. waste products), but haven't put a great deal of thought into this.



Yes, indirectly (he did so when he invented sin, and induces others to follow him.) The creation groans under the weight of sin. It doesn't not function properly. It is by the grace of God that creation continues to exist. Where sin abounds, grace must much more abound. When grace ceases, sin does its destructive work. This is a general principle which applies to both animate and inanimate objects.



Just like the flood. The waters burst forth from the depths, and fell from above.

Yes and no. Would it seem preferable for Jesus to have never uttered any of His rebukes? I agree that downplaying scriptures, twisting them, or ignoring certain parts of them are not positive points to bring up here, but I am not doing so except to speak the truth as I see it. When you can accept the entire Bible, including those passages that you prefer to avoid (e.g. Nadab and Abihu), and include all of them in your understandings, I will be more than happy to retract my statement above.

When a murderer commits his crime, and is brought to court, who decides his destiny? Does the murderer say "I choose the death penalty, because I deserve it!" Or does he go kicking and screaming to the gallows?

It is true that the law provides for the penalty, and that by committing murder, the criminal has essentially chosen his own destiny. However, that destiny is decided by one greater than himself, and by a law which is not written ex post facto. It is this fact which removes all trace of arbitrariness from the judgment. The judgment may seem hard, but it is fair. It is not arbitrary.

Tom, you still do not understand the meaning of "arbitrary," and this colors your entire view.

I don't think I said anything that would disagree with this, so on this point we may be in agreement.


Of course the judgments are in accordance with His character. Have I said otherwise?


Tom, you have consistently pointed out this passage, even though I have shown you that you are using it out of context. This is exactly the type of thing which I characterized above as "twisting" the scriptures, although the Bible would have used the word "wresting."

A text out of context is a pretext.

The quote you use here, to the exclusion of others which would speak in contradiction to it, if interpreted as you are choosing, is one which applies to a specific people in a specific time. That people is not the resurrected wicked, and that time is not the final judgment. God does not always deal with us in the same ways. God has at sundry times worked in various ways to accomplish His purposes. In the quote you bring up, God chose to withdraw His protection. From whom is He doing this?

Again, as Arnold has delineated so sagely, you have erred in applying this statement universally, when the context proves it applies to the people who live in the last days, during the period of their probation, before He comes to take His saints to Heaven.

Tom, this statement you continuously quote comes from a letter which includes the following sentence:



Tell me, if this truly does refer to Hell, how is it that the wicked will still be receiving warnings, counsels, and reproofs? Do you believe in them having a Second Chance?

If you will not admit that this quote has been used out of context, and that the judgments Mrs. White has spoken of do not apply to the final judgment which follows the millennium in Heaven, sadly, there is little I can say to keep you from further entrenching yourself in this error.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I'm pretty sure we're on the same page. If you read what he said in context, you should be able to see this. The pain is caused by the effect of sin on the conscience, and the revelation of truth. The condemnation which the sinner feels, which causes the pain, comes not from God, but is in the sin itself. I'm citing Ty's ideas here.

1.You're not Jesus.
2.You're a moderator on this forum. You are setting an example for the tone of the posts in this thread and on this forum. Here's what you said:



Is this the tone you wish the posts to have? Would you like me to write these things about you? About others? Do you want others saying this about others? I should accuse you of "neglecting to hear," "extracting only the thoughts which agree with your philosophy," "twisting," that which corresponds to your "cherished ideas"? Would you like this?

What about the golden rule?



If you can "speak the truth" as you see it, then so can I, and so can anyone else, and we'll wind up with a forum where people are accusing each other routinely of "twisting," "downplaying," "ignoring," "extracting," that which "agree with his philosophy."

Is this the kind of forum you want?

Tom,

I can respect disagreements which are based soundly on scripture. If you perceive I am in error and have scripture to show where I am wrong, then yes, I would hope that you would correct me. While correction always hurts, it is also for the best. "Faithful are the wounds of a friend."

Tom, it is difficult to communicate emotions in plain text, and I have never been fluent in doing so anyhow. But I mean well. I speak to you as a friend. If you see places where I am in error, then I invite you to treat me as a true friend also, with all the faithfulness that may be necessary.

This forum should be a place to learn the truth and to expose error--with the goal of putting each reader on a more solid path toward Heaven. This thread is discussing some very sober and important aspects of God's character, and to have God's character misrepresented is no small trifle for light discussion. In light of this, I am taking this discussion seriously, and may speak from time to time in the barest sincerity, as I have here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.