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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12292
12/22/04 08:31 PM
12/22/04 08:31 PM
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SDA
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If the glory of God is His character, how can character consume flesh like fire? Are you suggesting God's hand and backside do not consume like a fire? Does that mean His glory is only 180 degrees? (please excuse the pun)
BTW, if sin is consumed in the presence of God's glory, then doesn't that mean sin is a substance? No, of course not. But if sin can consumed, then sin can be contained, that is, quarantined within the blood of Jesus.
Also, the other questions you are unwilling to address right now, play a big part in this discussion. If you do not believe God killed all those people with fire and with water, then that says alot about your view of punishment and destruction.
PS - did you overlook my second to last post?
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12293
12/22/04 08:45 PM
12/22/04 08:45 PM
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OP
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Mike: If the glory of God is His character, how can character consume flesh like fire? Are you suggesting God's backside does not consume like a fire? Does that mean His glory is only 180 degrees? (please excuse the pun) PS - did you overlook my second to last post? Tom: To sin, wherever it is found, God is a consuming fire (DA 107, and others). In order not to destroy Moses, God veiled His glory. Yes God's character, which is love, would consume sin and destroy the sinner. God's love, agape, is a consuming fire. Here's the DA quote: quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.
I read your posts. What did I miss?
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12294
12/22/04 08:54 PM
12/22/04 08:54 PM
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quote:
In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin.
This quote tells us plainly that the glory of God consumes the sin within us. It doesn't destroy us in the process. Apparently, the glory of God doesn't burn in the same way fire and brimstone burns.
1. Why is it that only God's face is a consuming fire, and not His hand or back parts?
2. How does flesh differ before and after sin?
3. Why does flesh burn in the face of God's presence now, but not afterwards, in heaven?
4. Are there any examples of the glory of God's face burning up a sinner?
5. Are there any examples of God using fire and brimstone to punish and destroy sinners?
I edited my last post while you were working on yours. I added a few things. Several posts ago I quoted a bunch of passages that describe appeasing the wrath of God and the lake of fire. Is there any reason why we shouldn't take these plain insights literally?
[ December 22, 2004, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12295
12/22/04 10:03 PM
12/22/04 10:03 PM
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Exd 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Deu 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
/Thomas
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12296
12/22/04 11:26 PM
12/22/04 11:26 PM
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Plowing
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These direct quotes must not be ignored, Mike. The character of God is His glory therefore His glory is His character:
"Through trial and persecution the glory--the character-- of God is revealed in His chosen ones."{AA 576.4}
"By implanting in their hearts the principles of His word, the Holy Spirit develops in men the attributes of God. The light of His glory--His character--is to shine forth in His followers. Thus they are to glorify God, to lighten the path to the Bridegroom's home, to the city of God, to the marriage supper of the Lamb." {COL 414.2}
"And that character which expresses the glory--character--of Christ will be received into the Paradise of God. A renovated race shall walk with Him in white, for they are worthy." {DA 331.2}
"He has called us "to the obtaining of the glory"--character--"of our Lord Jesus Christ;" has called us to be "conformed to the image of His Son." 2 Thess. 2:14; Rom. 8:29. {DA 341.1}
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12297
12/23/04 01:24 AM
12/23/04 01:24 AM
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SDA
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Ikan, when I posted "if the glory of God is His character" I did not mean to imply I doubt it. I have believed it for years. The question now is, How should we understand this fact in light of the questions and quotes I posted?
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12298
12/23/04 02:26 AM
12/23/04 02:26 AM
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SDA
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Posts: 634
New York
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Looks like a busy day, and I don't have much time, but I would like to put in a few quick comments: quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
.
EW 218
The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death-- a death from which there will be no hope of resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 218.1}
Here again as we look at the fact that God's wrath is towards sin and it's horrible effects, and how the safty of the universe is in understanding the insues of the three deceptions of Satan. Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess, and some will choose to live forever in the fire of God's love, others will no longer want to live, so they go into the everlasting death. It will be a sad moment but sin will never more arise to give anymore pain, and all that happens is just and mercyful.
quote:
1SG 193
But he does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He lets him be as though he had not been; while the master has to suffer the seven last plagues, and then come up in the second resurrection, and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the wrath of God will be appeased. {1SG 193.1}[/QB]
The seven last plagues are again a oneness of being in God's control, but yet the result of people's choice of sin. We have plagues... AIDS, Mad Cow Disease, the pollution of our water system, a major one is global heating. The seven last plagues are the 7 last steps of earth becoming unable to support life and all life would did if the second coming did not interviene at the last moment.
But the 7 last plagues again are showing the contrast between living a life of self seeking as opposed to the law of Self Sacrificing love.
And as for the person in question (appears to be the slave holder, and what could have happened had the work been finished and Jesus come err this) once again they will face the horrable moment at the end as they realize how cruely they treated another human being, and they see it not through our eyes, but through God's eyes. It is a horrible revelation. Instead of casting their crown at Jesus feet saying "Holy, Holy, Holy" and become overwhelmed with the power of Grace. They have become so selfish that they only like Judas look at the horror of their sin and just want to die.
quote:
GC 542-544
A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them…. {GC 542.2}
NOTE: they would welcome destruction, which seems to imply it isn't caused by simply being in the presence of God's glory.[/QB]
Or this quote could be interepeted as how uncomfortable they would feel if they were to spend forever with Jesus. May I encourage you to read John 3, the verses just after 3:16, where Jesus tells that those who are lost are lost because they refuse to come to the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed, in other words, they feel that God is going to get them for their sins. They want to hide from their life record, they are afraid of what God is showing them as their lingering questions are answered, they want to self justify themselves in a light where there is no excuse. But those who come to the light, instead of finding a condeming God, find that their lives change. They are transformed into his likeness and it is heaven to be with him.
quote:
Like the waters of the Flood the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable…. {GC 543.1}
In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom…. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace. {GC 543.3} [/QB]
Jesus has done all he could. How many of those who rejected Jesus when he was on earth would feel that they had an excuse because he appeared simply as a human being? Had they seen him as Daniel did in such glory that he fainted, surely they would have then known that he was indeed the Messiah and accepted him. God was unfair to them by only lettng them see Jesus as another human.
We ourselves have not always been the best reflection of Christ. How unfair of God to send us to witness to them instead of letting them see Jesus in person and having the perfect witness.
In this event this is all cleared up. Those who have somehow responded to Jesus love hear his voice in the first resurection. Here the others can see Jesus for who he truely is, in all his power, glory and LOVE. Yet they continue to refuse.
quote:
…. They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}
NOTE: death and punishment are not one and same thing. On the contrary, death is the means by which the punishment is ended.[/QB]
Or it could be the process that leads to death. Does cancer cause suffering or death? What the lost are going through is the trifold process of having a sinful nature that controls their life, seeing their deepest desire, Jesus, in person and the attraction to him, yet their self imposed fear of him, and Jesus showing them exactly what their role in the Great Controversy was. This process will take a while, depending on how hard the heart is.
quote:
GC 672, 673
"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}[/QB]
What other human language can discribe the intencity of that day? We need to take all the texts together as the prophets use the fire texts to illustrate to our minds the intensity of what is going to happen, but also look as they give the additional information to try to ballance and fill out that picture, remember Isaiah 34:8 is not too far away from Isaiah 33 which says that while the sinners will die in this fire, the righteous will live forever in it.
quote:
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}
EW 294, 295
Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}
Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2} [/QB]
Please look at earlier dealings with this passage, and also the reading from the Morning Devotional Book "Mysteries Unvailed" by Lynn Wood that I posted here. Remember, Satan was the one who stood right in God's pressence for who knows how long. Satan has the hardest heart in the universe. Satan will do the most self justification before declareing the righteousness of Jehovah. What else can you expect to have happen? All we need to do is look to see how the Bible and Mrs. White define what (or shall we say "who") the fire is.
It would be one thing if we were to ONLY have the fire texts alone. It is something else when we have both a multitude of fire texts that illustrate something, in which fire is the best similie, AND the other texts and quotes that define just what (or who) this fire actually is.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12299
12/23/04 05:27 AM
12/23/04 05:27 AM
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SDA
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Kevin, or the facts can mean exactly the opposite of what you posted, that is, they can mean exactly what they say - God will punish, and then destroy, sinners using literal fire and brimstone. There is no evidence that the glory of God has ever consumed or killed sinners, in the meantime, there is plenty of evidence that God has used fire and brimstone to punish and destroy sinners. He has also used water, war and disease.
The 7 last plagues are no more natural occurrences than the 10 plagues that brought Pharaoh to his knees. Yes, God used the forces of nature to accomplish His purposes, except when He dispatch holy angels to kill the first born.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12300
12/24/04 04:29 AM
12/24/04 04:29 AM
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Well, Mike, apparently Jacob was surprised that he was not destroyed by God's glory: (note carefully WHY he was preserved)
"In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30.Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed.
At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}
"..wherever men came.." covers alot of turf.
First death and second death, second Advent or third Advent, it is still when men were exposed, for what they are, and exposed in various degrees in the past(dictated by Him) by what He is.
Look...You can believe in a modified semi-cruel arbitrary Father quite different from Jesus' example while on earth if you like.
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Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12301
12/24/04 05:11 AM
12/24/04 05:11 AM
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SDA
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Ikan, everything you posted about God is true. Even though there are no examples of sinners burning up in the presence of God, it may very well be possible. But I'm still not convinced it isn't a metaphor, perhaps referring to literal fire and brimstone.
"In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin." It is obvious that the fire referred to here is figurative, which makes me wonder about the whole concept of God's glory being a consuming fire. What kind of fire is it talking about? You seem to think it literally burns up unshielded sinners. I don't know. "God destroys no man...." That is, before their time. The blood of Pharaoh's first born testifies to the facts.
This much I do believe, God has used literal fire and brimstone to punish and to consume (i.e., kill) sinners in the past. He has also used other means to accomplish the same purpose. Does this mean God is semi-cruel and arbitrary? I don't think so. The holy angels rejoice everytime God punishes and consumes sinners. Sound strange? Not if we knew what they know!
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