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Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #122943
01/15/10 09:02 PM
01/15/10 09:02 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Tom, where does repentance happen in the sequence you described?


I wasn't aware of describing this in terms of a sequence.

Quote:
That is, does it happen before or after they "changed their minds or way of thinking"?


I don't know what "it" is. I'm guessing perhaps you're talking about specifying sin (confession) and genuine sorrow. If so, obviously confession would follow repentance. Regarding genuine sorrow, that's part and parcel to repentance, in the context of conversion.

Quote:
And, is repentance required when people like Moses sin after "one sees one's responsibility/guilt" and experiences a "change of mind or way of thinking"?


I don't think "required" makes sense in this question. I've addressed this quite a number of times on this thread.

It's not an arbitrary requirement.

As I already explained, repentance involved a change of direction. If one is aligned against God, it's necessary to change one's alignment in order to aligned with God. Or, to put it another way, if one is in rebellion against God, to be at peace with God, one must stop rebelling (i.e., one must repent).

Quote:
IOW, when is post-conversion confession and repentance necessary?


When one has gone the wrong way.

Quote:
Under what circumstances is it required (referring to people like Moses)?


Same answer.

Quote:
And, do you think habitual real righteousness (as opposed to imputed), like people like Moses regularly experience, counts as confession and repentance when they sin (making it unnecessary to actually verbalize it)?


I don't think in these terms. That is, "counts as confession and repentance." There's no arbitrary requirement for these things. There's no need for something to count as these things.

Quote:
PS - It would be nice if you would elaborate on your answers so I don't have to ask the obvious follow-up questions. Thank you.


It would be nice if I weren't asked the same questions so many times. Usually I answer with more detail when the questions are first asked, but as the questions are repeated, I become briefer.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #122957
01/16/10 03:11 PM
01/16/10 03:11 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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M: When is post-conversion confession and repentance necessary?

T: When one has gone the wrong way.

----

When people like Moses "go the wrong way" and dies before they can confess and repent, how does God handle that unconfessed, unrepented sin during judgment? Does He look at their life of habitual righteousness and disregard their unconfessed, unrepented sin? If not, what does God do about it in judgment?

Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #122966
01/17/10 06:59 PM
01/17/10 06:59 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, I explained things in terms of rebellion. Do you think Moses was in rebellion?

Let's try looking at it a different way. God will take anyone to heaven who would be happy there. Do you think Moses would have been happy in heaven had he died before he had a chance to repent?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #122967
01/18/10 04:24 AM
01/18/10 04:24 AM
J
James Saptenno  Offline OP
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
MM.

I don't believe that God put to death some one who is happy to live and work for Him before this man repent from his sin.

God wants all men saved and have eternal life.

So, you and Tom are digging the possibilities if Moses died before he repents, whether he goes to heaven or hell, I think is just wasting time.

Sorry, for this idea coming up in my head.

In His love

Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #123046
01/23/10 12:50 AM
01/23/10 12:50 AM
Rick H  Offline

Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,245
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
MM, I explained things in terms of rebellion. Do you think Moses was in rebellion?

Let's try looking at it a different way. God will take anyone to heaven who would be happy there. Do you think Moses would have been happy in heaven had he died before he had a chance to repent?


God will take only those who are prepared for heaven, and they will rejoice and be happy to be there...the thief on the cross had a few moments to choose but he was ready...

Re: I have some questions [Re: Rick H] #123053
01/24/10 12:29 AM
01/24/10 12:29 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
It comes to the same thing, as only those who are prepared for heaven would be happy there.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #123068
01/24/10 04:02 PM
01/24/10 04:02 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
James, it sounds like you believe God will not allow certain people to die before they can repent. Do you think repenting is necessary to be saved? Or, can God save people whether they repent or not?

Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #123070
01/24/10 04:16 PM
01/24/10 04:16 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
M: When is post-conversion confession and repentance necessary?

T: When one has gone the wrong way.

M: When people like Moses "go the wrong way" and die before they can confess and repent, how does God handle that unconfessed, unrepented sin during judgment? Does He look at their life of habitual righteousness and disregard their unconfessed, unrepented sin? If not, what does God do about it in judgment?

T: MM, I explained things in terms of rebellion. Do you think Moses was in rebellion? Let's try looking at it a different way. God will take anyone to heaven who would be happy there. Do you think Moses would have been happy in heaven had he died before he had a chance to repent?

Did A&E rebel when they sinned? When is sinning not rebellion? Did Moses know he was sinning against God? To answer your question, yes, I suspect Moses was in a state of rebellion when he sinned. I take it you don't.

To answer your other question, yes, I think Moses would have been happy in heaven had died before being able to repent. I take it you agree.

Now, please address my questions.

Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #123077
01/25/10 03:26 AM
01/25/10 03:26 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Did A&E rebel when they sinned?


Yes.

Quote:
When is sinning not rebellion?


When it's not done with the intent of acting contrary to God's will.

Quote:
Did Moses know he was sinning against God? To answer your question, yes, I suspect Moses was in a state of rebellion when he sinned. I take it you don't.


I think his sin was of the nature of a mistake, of not controlling his emotions, as opposed to a sin of intentionally acting contrary to God's will.

Quote:
To answer your other question, yes, I think Moses would have been happy in heaven had died before being able to repent. I take it you agree.


I said this before, so, yes, I agree with what I said.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #123083
01/25/10 05:00 PM
01/25/10 05:00 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Do you think Moses sinned ignorantly, that he didn't realize he had sinned? Or, do you think he knew what he was doing was a sin against God?

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