So, repentance is necessary for people like Moses who sin. But, according to you, common sense, not the law, dictates that it is necessary. Is this what you believe? If so, why do you think the law fails to specify something so logical, so sensible as repentance?

More questions: Do you think the law requires something so logical, so sensible as love? And, do you think the law points sinners to Jesus as their one and only Savior? If so, where in the law does it say so? Also, do you agree the SOP says both the law and God require love?

PS - By "law" I am referring to the 10Cs.

"People like Moses"? I didn't say anything about "people like Moses."



I said common sense tells us if we're going one way, and we wish to go another, we need to change direction. What I'm reacting to is the sense I get from reading what you're saying that you are suggesting an arbitrary requirement of the law for repentance, as if the law didn't exist, it wouldn't be necessary to repent. I disagree with this. Even without the law, repentance would be necessary, for the reasons common sense tells us. The law adds no more requirement for repentance than already existed.



I don't think so.



You've read the 10 commandments. Which of these do you think speaks of repentance being necessary?



If you're going to use the word "require," then that sounds like you're looking at things in a narrow way, in terms of an arbitrary requirement, which wouldn't exist without the law, in which case, no. However, the law is spiritual, as Jesus Christ explained. It is a transcript of God's character. As such, it is "exceeding broad."

I think this is getting off the point, however. In terms of Moses, I believe that had he died, before having the chance to repent, that he would have been happy in heaven, so God would have taken him there. I believe God will take everyone to heaven who will be happy there.

I believe the law is a tool to lead us to Christ. That is its primary function. From Christ we receive life. The law helps make clear to us our need of Christ.

Yes you did. Please see your post above.


Can't you say the same thing about all 10 commandments? That is, wouldn't they still be necessary even if the law didn't exist? And yet the law demands obedience. Do you agree? And, do you agree the law demands, requires love? If so, do you think it also demands, requires repentance when people like Moses sin?


Do you think common sense, not the law, dictates that repentance is necessary when people like Moses sin?


The law as a whole requires it. It's one law, not ten. Do you agree?


Do you agree the SOP uses the word "require" as it relates to law and love and obedience? Please refer to the quotes I posted on the previous page.

Also, I agree with you that people like Moses will go to heaven if they sin and die before being able to repent. However, unlike you, I believe repentance is necessary and that God must impute it in such cases. It goes along with the reason why God must impute the blood and righteous of Jesus to atone for our past sins.

Do you mean this? "To the first question, yes. To the second, you're assuming a false premise." If so, that wasn't me, but you.



They would still be true, even if they hadn't been written down. Is that what you mean?



Not in the sense that I'm understanding from what you're writing. I see the law as descriptive, telling us how to live if we wish to have peace and life, and warning us of behavior which is self destructive. The Ten Commandments can also be seen as 10 promises of things which God will accomplish for us if we have faith in His Son. I don't see them as "requirements" in the sense that these are things we have to do because it says so. Even if these weren't written down, doing these things would still be the way to life and peace.



I think I've answered this. By the way, what law are thinking of? That is, which commandment did you have in mind?

Repentance is a change of mind, a change of direction. If we are in rebellion against God, and we wish to be at peace with God, we need to stop fighting against Him. Does this not make sense to you? I don't see what you think the law has to do with this. I'm not saying the law has nothing to do with this; I'm saying, I don't see what you think the law has to do with this. What I think the law has to do with this is it makes it evident to us that we are in rebellion.



Why do you think this? What specifically that is written down gives you this idea?



It's 10 Commandments. If I made the claim that the law required something, and somebody asked me which commandment said something, I'd be able to cite something to support my claim. Otherwise one could claim anything.



The law requires love and obedience in the sense that without love and obedience it is not possible to keep the law. But love cannot be commanded; it can only be awakened by love.





Impute it? That doesn't make any sense to me. Repentance is not something which is "imputed." It's experienced. Why do you think God must impute it?



I understand this to mean the same thing as our being clothed by the robe of Christ's righteousness. That is, God's imputing the blood and righteousness of Jesus Christ to atone for our sins = by faith we are clothed with the robe of Christ's righteousness.

Do you think the law (10C) condemns those who sin? Do you think it points them to Jesus for pardon and salvation? If so, please show me where it says so.

"The Bible condemns every species of dishonesty, and demands right-doing under all circumstances. {FE 102.1} The law "points out our defects, and condemns us, but it has no power to save us. {RC 55.5} "The law condemns the sinner and drives him to Christ. It is God that justifies and pardons. {UL 377.4}

"The messenger should be able to say, "In the law is God's will; come, see for yourselves that the law is what Paul declared it to be--'holy, and just, and good.' "It reproves sin, it condemns the sinner, but it shows him his need of Christ, with whom is plenteous mercy and goodness and truth. Though the law cannot remit the penalty for sin, but charges the sinner with all his debt, Christ has promised abundant pardon to all who repent, and believe in His mercy. {1SM 371.1}

Regarding the first question, it says "Thou shalt" and "Thou shalt not." What do you think this means?

Regarding the second question, the Holy Spirit points sinners to Jesus Christ. He uses the law to help in this process. The law helps the sinner to recognize that he has done wrong and needs forgiveness.

I don't think the way God worded the ten commandments makes it clear the law condemns sinners or points them to Jesus for pardon and salvation. But elsewhere God says so very plainly, that is, He says the law condemns sinners and points them to Jesus for pardon and salvation. Similarly the law describes and demands love, faith, works, repentance, etc. "Thou shalt" and "thou shalt not" mean - While you're abiding in Jesus you will live in harmony with the will of God imitating the lovely example of Jesus. But the same law also condemns sinners to death. It does not and cannot pardon them. Instead, it points them to Jesus for pardon and salvation. And, yes, of course, the Holy Spirit helps them grasp the deeper and wider meaning of the law.

Again, though, do you agree the law requires people like Moses to repent when they sin and threatens condemnation and death if they don't repent and obey? Or, do you see the law as being more neutral, merely describing what it looks like when people are in harmony with the will of God, that it doesn't condemn them or require them to repent and obey?

This is their function, not their wording.



I agree with this completely.



Sure, in the same sense as what you just said. While one abides in Jesus, one lives in harmony with the law, imitating the lovely example of Jesus. This makes perfect sense, since the law is a transcript of God's character. By beholding we are transformed. So as we behold Jesus, we become like Him in character, which is tantamount to obeying the law.

Similarly, on the negative side, if we sin, we must die, since sin is based not on agape, but on selfishness, and selfishness can do no other but lead to misery and death.



The last points out the right way to live. The law is not a sentient being with the ability to pardon.



Not literally, but it performs this function, when the Holy Spirit uses it to bring about conviction of sin.



This looks like assuming a false premise here (e.g., that the truth must be one of these two things, or that these two things should be pitted against one another).

I think the law describes behavior which is in harmony with God's character. I think, on order to be like God in character (which is equivalent to saying obeying the law) one must know Christ (i.e. by born again/converted/pardoned/justified by faith; all synonyms), and repentance is a part of this process, as before uniting with Christ one must cease fighting against Him.

Tom, I'm glad we can agree on the points you named above. When Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" I believe it means, If you love me I will be able to empower you to imitate my example of loving service and obedience.

I also believe the law of God requires people like Moses to repent when they sin. If they should die before being able to repent I believe God imputes the repentance they would have experienced had they not died. Since God knows the end from the beginning He knows with absolute certainty they would have repented. Such people will be holy and happy in heaven.

EGW wrote:



This is what I had in mind in regards to loving Christ and keeping His commandments.

Regarding God requiring people like Moses to repent when they sin, this is not a requirement on the part of God as if it's something God needs. Not at all. God, from His perspective, has already forgiven. It's a "requirement" in the sense that we cannot accept God's forgiveness unless we acknowledge that we've done something wrong and we need it.

I'm getting a feeling of deja-vu here.

There's no need for God to "impute" anything. Just as we don't need to impute anything to forgive someone else, neither does God. You either choose to forgive someone else, or you don't.

Whether a person would have repented, cut off from the chance to do so, can be seen from their character. Such people will be happy in holy in heaven because of their character.