Tom, you have yet to actually say if you agree with those people who believe the Bible implies Jesus died of heart failure. Do you believe Jesus died of heart failure? If so, do you also believe the wicked will die of heart failure?

Also, if you believe God doesn't condemn the sinner, do you also believe the law, which is a transcript of His character, does not condemn the sinner?

And, do you believe condemnation and damnation and punishment are one and the same thing? If not, please explain your answer.

I answered this. I quoted Psalm 22, and mentioned John.



I answered this too. What did I say?



I answered this too. What did I say?



What did I say? Your question looks FOTAP to me. Please quote something I actually said, and ask me about that.



That's an interesting question. I haven't thought about this before.

Let's see, I guess "damnation" is more specific than "condemnation," since "damnation" is specifically in reference to the final judgment, whereas "condemnation" can refer to other things, depending on the context.

"Punishment" is also certainly broader in meaning that "damnation."

That leaves "punishment" and "condemnation" to consider. "Condemnation" seems to me to be more having to do with the status of a person, whereas "punishment" depicts an action.

Here's the thing by Ty I mentioned, from "Shades of Grace." (emphasis original).

When Moses reminded Israel of when God gave them His holy law, he said of the Lord, „He shined ... from his right hand went a fiery law for them. Yea, he loved the people” (Deuteronomy 33:2, 3). “And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel” (Exodus 24:17). “For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire” (Deuteronomy 4:24). Paul made the same kind of parallel between God and fire: “Our God is a consuming fire” (Hebrews 12:29).

We are not to conclude from such texts that God is composed in nature of literal fire. But rather, as Moses said, his glory is “like devouring fire . . . in the eyes” of human beings. God’s law is fiery; His glory is like a devouring fire; and His love is like an unquenchable fire. In what sense? In that the righteousness of God’s character of love stands in distinct contrast to our sinful selfishness.

The use of the words consuming and devouring indicate the reality that God’s righteous love not only exposes sin, it destroys it like darkness vanishes before the greater power of light. God’s love is wholly incompatible with sin. Whenever the two meet in close proximity, the lesser is consumed by the greater. With unrelenting passion, love devours all that is sinful an selfish. To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire by virtue of who and what He is in character.

It is for this very reason that God has hidden Himself behind the subduing veil that is Christ. In Jesus we see the sunlight, as it were, without looking directly into the sun; we see the attractive beauty of God’s character in bearable splendor, without having to face the full brilliance of divine glory before we can survive it. As we come to know God in Christ, the heat of His glorious love slowly turned up to consume away our sin with merciful, healing gentleness. As we see Him more and more clearly, we see ourselves in ugly contrast with progressive clarity as well. With each sensitizing revelation we have the opportunity to dive deeper into the flame, to be “washed . . . by the spirit [the mental process[ of judgment [discernment] and by the spirit of burning” (Isaiah 4:4, NKJV). “The path of the just is like the shining sun, shat shines ever brighter unto the perfect day” (Proverbs 4:18, NKJV).” “’For He is like a refiner’s fire and like launderer’s soap’” (Malachi 3:2, NKJV).

Christianity is intended to be an ever-deepening journey into the heart of God, by which the beholding of His glory gradually transforms the believer into the same character likeness (2 Cor. 3:18). For those who persist in sin to the ruin of their inner capacity to discern and reflect God’s love, that fire of divine love which would have cleansed them will, on the day of final reckoning, ignite in their souls a destructive measure of shame and guilt. The glory of Him who is love will be more than the conscience can bear.

On the day of unveiled encounter, they will experience psychological and emotional meltdown in God’s immediate presence. “’For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up.’ Says the Lord of hosts,’ That will leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My name [love My character] the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings [in the rays of light that emanate from Him]’ “(Malachi 4:1, 2, NKJC). Everyone will eventually meet God in all the radiance of His glorious love. Some will be consumed, while others are healed by the very same encounter.

The love of which Solomon speaks—strong as death, relentless as the grave, and as unquenchable as the fire of God’s glory—was manifested in Christ. At Gethsemane and Calvary we behold God’s love put to the severest test and emerging from the fire victorious over the law of sin and death. In a word, the sufferings of Jesus consisted of a raw encounter with reality. He entered into the uncharted realm of total truth, both about God and about fallen mankind. He experienced perfect consciousness of God’s holy love in contrast to our sinful selfishness.

In His mind and heart He faced, with painful acuity, the full reality of human wickedness being consumed by the holiness of God. When the two realities reached their zenith point in His consciousness, they clashed for the mastery, and God’s love was victorious. He chose to resist “the law of sin and death” and to keep tight hold of the principle of selfless love. Sinful humanity died in the death of Christ and an entirely new humanity emerged triumphant over sin an drenched in the blood of relentless love.

Tom, you still haven't answered yes or no if you believe Jesus died of heart failure. Saying others believe it does not tell me if you do too.

Also, do you believe God condemns sinners? If not, do you believe the law condemns sinners?

And, do you believe God punishes sinners?

Tom, what Ty seems to be saying doesn't make sense in light of the fact Jesus was the full and complete revelation of God's character. The character of God was not veiled in Jesus; instead, it was revealed in all its glory and luster. But, from what I hear you and Ty saying, it is this very revelation that will kill the wicked during the final judgment. If so, why didn't it kill everyone Jesus came in contact with while He was here in the flesh?

Yes I did. I quoted this:



You asked if this could be seen from Scripture as well, and I addressed that too.



It would depend upon what you meant by this. My sense is that I don't agree with how you would understand these statements. That is, if the question is "do you believe God condemns sinners according to my (MM's) understanding," my answer would be no, and the same for the second question.

I agree with what Ty wrote.



Yes, but, again, not as I perceive you do. Not as an arbitrary/artificially imposed action but as a consequence of the choices the wicked have made. DA 764 seems to me to be very clear about this. He leaves Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin. This is their punishment.



By coming in sinful flesh, as one of us, as Ty explained, the glory was present in a way that it could be born by sinful humans, although at times "divinity flashed through humanity," and sinful humans had to flee.

Tom, do you believe Jesus died of heart failure. Yes or no, please.

PS - Tom, do you believe Jesus fully revealed the character of God?

You already asked this. I answered this in post #123098.

MM, have you noticed you ask the same questions over and over and over again? Even though they've been plainly answered? If you look at post #123098, you can see that I clearly answered your question.

Also, how many times have I made the point that Christ fully revealed God's character? Probably several hundred times in the last several years, right?

Do you think saying "Jesus' heart gave out" is the precise, exact same thing as saying "Jesus died of a broken heart"? And, if you believe the wicked will die the exact same death Jesus did it stands to reason you believe their heart will give out. Why do you think their heart will give out?