Hi.

My 3 yr old son has a long list of allergies, including wheat (probably has celiac), beans (including soy, lentils, garbanzo, etc.) and is not to have nuts until he is at least 4 yrs old (I'm pretty sure he reacts to cashews).

As he is also allergic to milk & eggs, if we were to go vegetarian, we would have to be vegan. Is that possible while making sure he gets all the nutrition he needs to grow healthy. He had not really started growing until he turned 3. in the last 4 months he has grown 1.5 inches, from 9-18 months he barely grew at all, so I feel he is finally catching up a bit.

Is there anything you would recommend?

Hi Sarah,

I'm sorry to hear about the health difficulties of your son. It looks like he was born with a weak Immune system. Also, at times when we go through difficult times some children are more sensitive than others and internalize the stress that take a toll on his immune system. Either if he's born with it, or stress or both, any immune system can get strenghten when we work in getting closer to God's original design for our health by meeting our bodies needs.

Some people are totally fruitarians or others are raw foodist and benefit with a very strong health. A lot of these individuals had severe illnesses and with a raw diet and exercise have reverse their condition. God created us to eat plain, fresh, simple raw food. The fruiarians and raw foodist do have have nuts and sprouted beans in their diet, however the fruitarian do it without the beans.

What I get from your post is that you weren't vegetarians and had dairy in your diet. Dairy is one of the most offensive food for an immune system. I feel that by only removing your sons from dairy you should see some great improvement with his health within a month.

So my #1 recommendation would be to withdraw him from all dairy products including the soya cheeses made with casein.

My #2 recommendation would be to keep him away from all animal products as it is filled with foreign bodies that is quite offensive to the Immune system also.

By keeping #1 and #2 from him, then his body will have less offending subtances to fight against daily. Therefore, daily his Immune System will gain more strenght to deal better with other regular offenses.

When the immune system(IS) is continually over burdened, it will over react to anything and to the strangest thing at times. These reaction comes and goes as it all depends on the individual IS strenght at the time the food is ingested. Those that has a weaker immune system for whatever reason, their IS will get easily over-burdened with much less offensive then another person with a stronger IS.

So don't be frightened with the long list of allergies he's demonstrating now. It wouldn't surprise me that it is just an over reaction. So it doesn't mean that he's allergic to the beans and the nuts, but just because they are harder to digest, the system might over-reacted to them. With time, you might see that he won't have any problem with these ingredients. But before hand, the focuss is to strenghten his immune system with simple foods and as much raw fresh vegetable and fruits as much as he will eat. For sure cook food are ok too, but a good amount of raw is the best. For grains of course rice will be the choice grain and stay away from grain with gluten(wheat, buckwheat, oats, rye).

Instead of nuts, there's some seeds like pumkin, sunflower that might be less offensive.

Then once you see a good improvement in his health, introduce one nuts at a time for a couple of week and see if there's any reaction before introducing another ingredient. For sure, it would be great that he could get some nuts and some beans in his diet.

Another pointer, is to stay away from process foods which has a long list of chemicals. The key is simple foods.

Bless you and praying that God will guide you to meet his needs.

Sarah,

Do you have any Jewish, Asian, Arab, Greek, or African blood in your ancestry? If you do, I would recommend that you test your son for G6PD-deficiency. It is genetic, and cannot be changed, but would certainly help you to understand why your son has a problem with beans, and if your son has this, there is a whole list of foods, chemicals, and medicines which must be avoided. Up to 70% of some of Jewish/Arab populations test positive for this condition. In Taiwan, all babies are mandatorily tested for it at birth, with between three and four percent of the population testing positive. In Thailand, over 10% of those tested are positive, but testing is not widespread.

If your son has G6PD deficiency, you must avoid fava beans/lima beans entirely. Eating a meal of those could be fatal. I have recently become acquainted with this condition, and with a number of people who have it. As a lifelong, third-generation vegetarian, I am now struggling with the possibility of recommending the addition of some meat to their diet. G6PD deficiency means that the blood is weak to ALL legumes. That wipes out a huge swath of foods, including all beans, peanuts, etc.--anything that comes in a pod--carob, tamarind, alfalfa, clover, vanilla, etc., and even the pollen from these plants can be toxic. The red blood cells can actually die because of the deficiency of G6PD, which leaves them vulnerable and unprotected.

Having done some research, it appears the condition is not new, but has been known since at least 2000 years ago. It is the most common genetic metabolic disorder in the world, but is nearly unheard of among white Europeans. There is a plus side to it--the disorder gives built-in resistance to malaria (which is probably good, since anti-malarial drugs are on their no-no list).

If your son does not have this condition, you can be thankful. Allergies can frequently be treated by total, strict abstinence for at least six months to a year, followed by careful, moderate, reintroduction into the diet.

I would invite anyone with nutritional expertise to suggest a diet with adequate and complete protein which utilizes no legumes. I have learned that barley is higher in lysine than other grains, but could it provide enough? Is there any way to avoid meat if one is forced to avoid legumes?

(For those questioning the need for certain people to avoid legumes, please search online for the G6PD disorder of "favism.")

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I would add to Elle's suggestions and define "processed" as to do away with all refined foods. White flour, white sugar (includes "brown" sugar), white rice, etc.

If it has a nutritional label, don't eat it. Which means as Elle suggested, raw or at least simple. I wouldn't be surprised that with a move to a healthy diet, many of his allergies would disappear.

GC, does Quinoa have complete protein? I seemed to have thought I read it does.

kland,

That looks like a good option, thank you. I had never heard of quinoa before. Unfortunately, such an exotic product does not exist in the marketplaces here, so I am still left to wonder if there is a way of avoiding meat and legumes both, while still obtaining adequate protein.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I believe a little abstraction is relevant here.

Just because I specifically said quinoa since that is specifically what I had read, would it be out of place to expect there could be other plants with complete protein? I wouldn't say quinoa is exotic as it was quite popular with the Incas and quite popular in South America. It has even been "classified as a "super crop" by the United Nations".

Would it make sense that a first start towards investigating what other plants have complete proteins is to look at quinoa's scientific name and find out what plants are in the same genus?

For example, "Quinoa, Chenopodium quinoa Willd., is in the Goosefoot family (Chenopodiaceae) which includes beets, chard, and spinach." Also, lambs quarters and pigweed. You could proceed up to the family level, Amaranthaceae.

This does not mean all such plants have a complete protein, but would be some place to start investigating. Then, since there is at least one plant which does have a complete protein, you could consider that there are others which do, too. You may not find them in the supermarket*, but you may find them along the roadside.

*Hence part of my thread idea of our health being under attack.

Found this:


But why need one plant for complete protein when you can combine them:


So I would think that with combinations, there are more than adequate sources of complete proteins.
Unless you really want meat...

It is a known fact that a meat diet provides more protein than a vegetarian one. It is also a known fact that most vegetarians get more than enough protein. However, the combinations of a legume and a grain to get a complete protein (beans and rice) would be out of the picture if one must avoid legumes. Most vegetarians heavily rely on legumes to provide a complete protein.

Of the four foods listed as having a complete protein, one is a legume, and two are impossible to obtain in this part of the world. I will have to research the remaining one: buckwheat. Preliminary research indicates this would be a very good source of complete proteins for certain countries. However, there are other countries where buckwheat is not available. The availability in Asia is spotty.

For Sarah, buckwheat may be a good answer. For me it depends on the availability. I do appreciate the tip. I did not know much about buckwheat before.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Perhaps you are missing my point.

Hi Kland and GC, Nice advices on quinoa and buckwheat. Just to add to what you both said and to dissipate the fear of not having "complete protein" which was the edge for many decades of knocking down vegetarianism.

The "complete protein" argument was employ as a scare tacktive but also was based on ignorance as knowledge wasn't available on the subject. As the years passed by and knowledge increased we now know that anything we eat has to be digested and broken down to its smallest parts for it to be used and assimilated by the body. So, a piece of meat with "complete protein" or some beans with "a lot of protein", needs to be broken down to the Amino Acids(AA) level and added to the body's Amino Acids pool that floats around in our blood steam.

So we all know that the body doesn't take a piece of muscle from the cow you just ate, and use the same "complete protein" piece to add to a specific spot where muscle is required. No, to make new muscle, the body start from scratch and take from the building blocks available in the AA pools and build new muscles.

The argument of "complete protein" comes from the old times and undermind how the body works. God put protein in everything we eat. There's protein in lettuce, apples, watermelons, strawberries, broccoli, etc... everywhere, all are composed of many different AAs as building blocks. So as long as we eat a wide variety of foods with a happy heart praising and trusting God's leading in selecting foods to meet our needs, we will be fine. When your AA pool will be depleted in one particular AA, God gives us "cravings".

We need to follow the Creator's voice through the cravings he gives us. I'm not talking about the cravings for chocolate or ice cream here. That's not the creator's voice. But the cravings for oranges, or bananas, or avocados, broccoli, etc... I'm sure we all experienced eating a particular wholesome food that seems to taste so good(better than usually) and make your mouth watery by the though of it. That's an intence craving. Craving can be more settle too, just a thought like ..."hmmm I feel like eating some _________ today".

I was quite impressed with your tips on quinoa and buckwheat which was very good practical advice that can meet this young man's needs very well.

My favorite pancake is 1/2 buckwheat flour and 1/2 brown rice flour. Yummy, yum, yum! 100% buckwheat pancake is good too! Also, the buckwheat noodles that the Japanese ravish on. One of my best friend was Japanese and she often made me buckwheat noodles with green onions, garlic, carrots sliced thinly lenght wise(2 inches), spinach, and crush sesame seeds. Nice color and super tasty! This is making my mouth watery! Guess what! I'm having buckwheat today!

Yes, Elle, your post is correct about the body's need to break down proteins. You are also correct that there is protein in nearly everything we eat. To add some detail to the discussion that will make it more relevant to those who cannot eat legumes on account of their allergies, those proteins are broken down into amino acids. The body cannot simply create all of these amino acids, hence some are called "essential," and are required in the diet.

Here is a list of the essential amino acids: Arginine, histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, and valine.

The following quote I found online sums up the situation fairly well.


For someone like me (adult) who chose to supply all necessary proteins without the use of legumes, it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, on a vegan diet. Here is why.

Nearly all foods have all of the amino acids. But at least one of the essential amino acids will be in diminished quantities as compared to the others. In grains, lysine is the "weakest link." In legumes (beans, etc.), methionine is the limiting factor.

In order to get enough lysine on a rice-based diet, with no legumes, I would need to consume at least 16 cups of cooked rice every day. I cannot do this. My stomach is simply not big enough for that. If I can eat as much as 2.5 cups in a single meal, I'm overeating already. Multiply that out, and I would need to stuff myself for every single meal, more than six meals a day, just to get enough lysine from rice.

Let's say we eat bread instead of rice. I would need to eat about 32 slices of whole-wheat bread (at 28 g/slice) every day to get enough lysine from bread.

...Or 5 cups of instant, dry oatmeal (uncooked). (I suppose it triples in size when cooked, so it would be about the same as the rice.)
...Or 6 cups of cooked quinoa (which is not available in these parts anyhow).
...Or 9 ? of buckwheat groats.

In other words, lysine, even in these "complete protein grains," is very limited outside of the legume family.

I'm getting this information from a very informative website. Please refer to this for more information:

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/protein

Based on these figures, I'm still unconvinced on the feasibility of avoiding legumes without eating meat. If you have allergies to the legumes, tough beans.

Egg provides a complete protein with no "limiting" amino acids. As such, it is used as the standard for proper balance of proteins, apparently. However, milk and eggs are frequently high on the list of banned foods for those with allergies.

As this thread is in reference to accommodating a vegan diet for those with allergies, we must be more detailed than to just say "all foods have proteins." Our bodies require proteins from a variety of sources, and if you start eliminating some of those sources, finding proper substitutes can be more complex than first glance.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Gordon,

I appreciate your input. Unfortunately, the data on that website are inaccurate. "Complete protein" does not equal "adequate protein." Nearly all foods give a "complete protein," which just means they have some of each of the essential amino acids. But how much of each? That is the key.

I have been doing some very careful research lately, of necessity, on this topic, and am frankly scrambling to find a way to avoid recommending meat given the peculiar situation I am dealing with here. I'm thankful that I am not allergic to and/or unable to eat the foods which are off the list for some people. I have no problem, and can easily get adequate protein without resorting to meat. However, there are special cases which may call for the judicious use of some meat. (And even Mrs. White, truth be told, would have supported such.)

That website does not give quantitative data regarding the amino acids. The "graphs" are highly inaccurate, as can be verified by comparison with other, more scholarly, websites.

The one point upon which I will agree, heartily, with that website--and this makes its message essentially true for most people who do not have special dietary restrictions on account of allergies or genetic metabolic disorders--is that all foods have protein, and we get more than enough protein in terms of overall quantity.

Where that website fails is in not taking into account the amounts of individual amino acids which may be present in a restricted diet. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If you get 280% of your needs for tryptophan, 800% of your needs for methionine, 350% of your requirement for isoleucine, etc. but only 25% of your needs for lysine, your body will still end up breaking down muscle tissue, etc. in order to meet the lysine requirement.

In other words, you might get three times as much protein as you need overall, but for lack of just one kind of amino acid, it still fails to suffice. The body cannot convert isoleucine or any other of the amino acids to lysine. It cannot make lysine. Lysine is found mostly in the legume family of plants. There are over 20,000 legumes species. It is difficult to eat a vegan diet without them. So long as you eat "normal" foods, you will get enough lysine. But if you must eliminate legumes, for whatever reason, it is now a big challenge to get adequate lysine.

I found out that one source of lysine, apart from legumes (according to one list online, anyhow), is Lamb's Quarters. So, I went out hunting for them today. I used to eat them back in America, and I know them very well. I would easily spot one if I saw one, and I felt sure I had seen them here in Taiwan before. Nevertheless, I came up empty. Not even one single plant of it could I find. How disappointing.

I'm desperately looking for a non-legume source of lysine that could make meat unnecessary. Oh, and it also cannot be egg, corn, potatoes, wheat, milk, orange, papaya, almonds, walnuts, asparagus etc. on account of allergies. And we do not have access to such nice things here as spelt, barley, rye, quinoa, etc. This is not America.

We do have rice and buckwheat here.

In this particular case, lysine is the limiting factor. I have no doubts about all other amino acids, or overall quantities of protein. But if you must avoid legumes....can you avoid meat? To answer this question, I need to find an adequate supply of lysine from locally-grown foods. If you know of some factual data specific to this, which also indicate the quantities of the food source that would be required to meet the body's needs, I would appreciate it.

If anyone here is a dietitian or nutritionist and/or can give some very specific facts that would set things straight on how to get adequate lysine sans the fabaceae family of plants (legumes), I welcome your input.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

This statement made no sense until reading your link giving how much lysine one needed. As in, just because one food does not have adequate amounts of all amino acids, doesn't mean others don't have the missing ones. But, if you are saying nothing else has lysine, then that might make sense.

What did you have for oats? I found 1.094g per cup which would mean about two cups needed.

Let me try to explain it again.

Lamb's Quarters and Quinoa are two members out of about 150 species of the Chenopodium genus, both of which are complete proteins. And 1,400 species in the subfamily. Would it be unreasonable to conclude there may be others of the 150 species which may have complete proteins? If Chenopodium has 2 out of 150 with adequate lysine, what about the Amaranthaceae family? Would it be unreasonable to conclude there may be other genus of the family which may have complete proteins? And, would it be unreasonable to conclude that given that legumes, buckwheat, hemp, and Chenopodium have complete proteins, that other plants may have them, too?

Why not start by finding out what members of Chenopodium (goosefoot) you have there, then finding out how much lysine they have? Seems reasonable to me. Keep in mind, you didn't even know about quinoa or that Lamb's Quarters had lysine a little bit ago. How many other plants have lysine you don't know about. Rather than others giving you lists of plants and you give all the reasons why they won't work, start with what you have. Locally grown foods may not have the right nutrition you are seeking, but locally growing plants may.

Another question to investigate is why did I see entries of a patent for L-Lysine production from the fermentation of sugar beets on a search list. (Beets are in the subfamily).

By the way, how does meat come to have complete protein? Where do animals get it from?

Kland is right. Jesus said I will never leave you nor forsake you.

There is a local solution. Ask Him who created all men.

Have you any evidence of deficiency?

Have you determined causative factors or valid allergic reaction?

If you wish to go the textbook route, relying on charts, assess patient history to verify any underlying conditions including a blood profile. Possibly some allergies are exaggerated, outgrown or pathologically triggered. History and Diagnosis precede Treatment, Prescription.

kland,

I've learned in my travels around the world that there are some families of plants which seem to occur in just one area or range, and are not evenly distributed throughout the world. Chenopodium may like a drier climate than we have here, or for whatever reason just may not be here in this part of Asia. Tumbleweeds are in that family, I believe, and to use them as an example, I have never seen a tumbleweed in Asia. I am still looking for some native chenopods, of course, so if I discover some here, that would be great. Conversely, we have ferns here that grow into literal trees (and I can never remember if I'm supposed to call them "fern trees" or "tree ferns"). I've never seen these kind of trees in other parts of Asia, only in Taiwan, and of course no such thing exists in North America. Ferns thrive in a moist environment, whereas chenopods do not. Taiwan happens to be one of the wettest spots on the planet, with average annual rainfall in excess of 2.5 meters in the drier areas going up to 6.7 meters in the wettest (that's 22 feet of rainfall!).

Beets are uncommon here. The soil and climate are much different here than the beet-growing areas of North America. I suppose the beets themselves are not native, but are introduced here, like the potatoes which were introduced into Thailand about 100 years ago and are still uncommon there.

A book I found online sheds light on the chenopods. They are not much in Asia, and have not had success in Asia, though they were introduced here as early as the 19th century. Of the chenopods, apparently quinoa has exceptional amounts of lysine. Again, quinoa is not available here.

Gordon, the "patient" in this case has a clinical diagnosis which forbids the use of legumes due to a genetic metabolic disorder called favism or G6PD-deficiency disease. As it is genetic, it is not going away by any form of treatment. In Taiwan, as much as 3% of people have the condition, and therefore all babies are tested for it at birth. The patient also has the lab report from a full workup on allergies and is now able to avoid hospitalization due to asthma from the consumption of those allergens. In other words, these are known conditions and non-negotiable.

kland, to answer your last question, I suppose the animals get their complete protein from one of two sources--internal manufacture (what is essential for humans may not be essential for them) and/or the consumption of the fabaceae family of plants (which are contraindicated in this situation).

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

It is somewhat appalling that you would imply eating meat is tantamount to being "forsaken" of God, or even that it is in any way related to God's favor or presence. Jesus did not "forsake" the disciples in their long night of fishing, but rather performed a miracle to provide them an extremely good haul of fish. Later, and this after his resurrection, Jesus also cooked fish to give them, and He ate it with them.

If Jesus would not forsake the needs of His disciples, why should I be so narrow-minded as to conclude that eating meat is to be forsaken of Him now?

In other words, God has given me a broad enough mind to realize that the "local solution" might require some meat. I am still hoping to find a better option, but if meat is the only option, I will not for a minute equate this to being forsaken of God.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Try Jeff Novick RD who works with John McDougall. These people teach more truth about vegan nutrition than most SDAs:

http://drmcdougall.com/index.html

McDougall Discussion Board:
http://drmcdougall.com/forums/index.php

----------------

Have you evidence of deficiency? Could God be supplying the difference?

Have you ruled out flax, sesame seed?

______________

GC,

I'm not sure that's what Gordon was saying. Interesting you brought that up. Which makes me think there is something else going on here.

What does Ellen White have to say on the topic? Is eating meat "healthy"? Why be healthy? Is there something in the Bible about our bodies being the temple of God? God doesn't want healthy sinners, but those who are saved will strive to keep their temples in as a holy condition as possible.

If eating meat is the goal, then nothing else will matter and what anyone says will be a waste.


A recurring theme I'm trying to get you to see is that you can't go off concluding random things before you even gather the knowledge. Even from your own statements, one could not come to the conclusion that chenopods do not thrive in a moist environment. How much knowledge do you have of plants? My observations reveal any genus with several hundred species most likely have species living in a wide variety of environments. An abrupt disqualifying statement that none grow in certain environments is out of line besides not even dealing with the possibility of other plants inside the family or outside of it.

I am glad you have searched some about them, but a quick search shows the top of the list with the following statement:

And another entry has:

So, unless I'm mistaken, chenopods do grow in Taiwan, and they do grow in at least upper salt-marshes, which I would make a wild conjecture to be, "moist".

Like I say, it is my opinion that something else is going on Taiwan than an honest discovery for a non-meat source of nutrition.

Gordon had good questions. You answered some. And you answered mine about where do animals get it. Seems reasonable. But what about Gordon's question and relate it to nuts? What about oats? Or the others mentioned which you say are available? I don't know much about G6PD deficiency, but I read some have symptoms and others don't. Which causes me to consider no matter the genetics, health can be changed and affected through diet. Eating meat will only compound problems. People with type I diabetes have gone off their medicine that they had no hope giving up - according to doctors. Have you heard of epigenetics? Might want to broaden your knowledge and search for that when you aren't looking through the 8,000+ search entries for, chenopod Taiwan.

Broad minds will find answers. They will consider that if one plant has a nutrient, others may too. That if God intended for us to eat plants, He would provide a wide variety of plants growing in a wide variety of locations to enable us to get our nutrition. What I heard Gordon as saying is that plants grow most everywhere and where one doesn't grow, another takes it's place -- you are not left without. Broad minds will consider that if 100 years ago, "now" is the time to give up meat, she didn't mean "soon" at some distant unknown time. True, those with genetic deficiencies may have to put forth a little more effort. Those who live in the Arctic circle may not be able to find plants. I heard they only lived to their 30's, too. But for the rest of us with supermarkets, transportation, food growing locally, I have a hard time finding any excuse....excepting for desire.

So Green, here's a missionary project for you.

Kland's advice seems most pertinent - find a local source, I'm sure it exists. Ask God to guide you. Since favism is prevalent in your corner of the globe, this could be your Taichung Nobel.

Or, since Lambsquarters are ubiquitous over here, especially prolific on *moist* dungpiles, arrange for seeds to be sent your way and start a trial. As you know they 'grow like weeds' but with contained root systems.

But have you yet determined a lysine deficiency?

-------------

kland,

The book I linked in my earlier post (did you look at that?) is where I was getting my information. It was focused on the food-source chenopods, as you will readily admit not all chenopods are fit for food.

No, I am not wanting anyone to eat meat. Need I repeat this in every post to squelch your suspicions to the contrary? What I do recognize, is that there are times when meat is best given extenuating circumstances. Just such circumstances are faced here, and it is quite a puzzle to try to circumnavigate them.

I think, however, I may have found a solution--import Lysine supplements from overseas. The supplements, being in concentrated form, could be affordably imported.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Gordon,

You obviously have not traveled much, or if so, not recently. It is against the law in most every country these days to import plants, seeds, or cuttings of non-native plants. In Taiwan, it can land as much as seven years in jail, not to mention a tremendous fine.

If Lamb's Quarters are not in Taiwan, there's nothing I will be doing to bring them in.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

With Quinoa the seed head is eaten. Lambsquarters it is the leaf that is usually eaten, though the seed head most likely is edible, I wouldn't assume that the nutitional value is the same as the Quinoa seed! Lambsquarter also contains some oxalic acid.



Spirulina, and Brewer's yeast are supplements that have a good amount of lysine!


Some Foods High in Lysine

Fruits - apricots, apples, pears

Nuts, grains and vegetables - wheat germ, corn, winter squash, peas, pumpkin seeds, pistachios, peanuts, almonds, sesame seeds, Brazil nuts

Crater, the lambsquarter tops, comprising seedhead & leaf, are a favourite staple and quick to pick - the young plants are nicest, the stalks tender. Harvest lunch in 30 seconds. Cram into sandwich or chop into salad. Lemon, salt, tomato, hummus.

The oxalic acid question remains - few definitive statements, but ever the onerous caution. Where's the science? Many of these greens are high in both calcium & oxalic acid - did God make a mistake - we think not. I scarf these down in season, no gout as yet, no scalpels. Just increased strength & stamina. (Was Popeye right?) However, they're raw, not cooked, and this could change everything. Certainly the Standard American Diet renders one 'uric acid compromised' - but are deep greens any threat to a balanced vegan diet?

Since your article raised rhubarb too - what are the numbers here? I was unaware oxalic acid was the 'poisonous' component - only assumed there must be a 'real' poison. Maybe these are also edible? Another topic for Green & Mike ... Would Jesus eat rhubarb cooked or raw?
____________

Crater,

The foods you listed as being high in lysine are not so high in lysine. The website is specifically targeting foods that have a high ratio of lysine versus arginine, since arginine is contraindicated in the case of herpes virus.

What we need here is numbers. If, for example, Brewer's yeast is high in lysine, how much daily intake of Brewer's yeast would one require in order to have sufficient lysine?

It goes without saying that a shake or two will not provide enough. But yeast flakes are often used merely as flavoring. How much would one actually need if that were their only source of lysine?

I need science and numbers. Few of the websites suggested here have shown actual numbers. Gordon asks for evidence of a deficiency. I might ask in return if there is a clinical test that would show this? If the body breaks down muscle to get the lysine out, wouldn't the blood levels of lysine remain stable? In any case, I'm needing some real information. If I observe a slightly distended belly, reminiscent of starving children in Africa, could this be on account of inadequate nutrition?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green, did you try Jeff Novick? He's online at a free forum. I'm sure he has an office number too.

Any Western teaching hospital could direct you to a government biochemistry institute. There may be investigators who have studied nothing but lysine for years. There are experts in every field and perhaps some in your back yard. Much of the world's medical research is reported in English because publishing is the lifeline to grants, and we hold the gold. University and government. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. Some Journals are freely archived online. Search for relevant articles, contact one of the authors - their affiliation is usually indicated. It will not take long to identify the top 5 lysine researchers in the western world. They'll know all about testing protocols. Or contact a Journal office directly.

But since you're seeking a food source, agricultural/food science Journals or institutes may be your next step. Taiwan must have a Dept. of Agriculture, agronomists, biochemists, a National Institute of Health. Even Google is a good start.

As kland mentionned, there's probably a very local (plant-based) solution.
____________

Gordon,

I really do appreciate your attempts at helpfulness here. Please pardon my exasperation at times here on account of the dearth of good options and information. It has been very difficult to find any information online. There are even many conflicting pieces of information. One list will show that one food is high in such and such nutrient, while another list will contradict that.

My gut says few people are studying these things as they are not deemed worthy from a financial perspective. Drug makers don't make anything on natural products. Can't patent an amino acid.

We live in an imperfect world where we cannot always get all of the nutrition we need. Until we get to Heaven, we won't have the fruit of the Tree of Life. Meanwhile we must strive to live as healthfully as possible.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Hi Green,

Pls. excuse the worldly suggestions. My first choice is to seek God's wisdom - the bandwidth is so much better. (May need to clean your receptor genes). It seems this was kland's advice as well, and I second the motion. As you know, man's extremity is God's opportunity - maybe where you're at right now. He will show you the direct path to lysine - it could be through a scientist or bushman, but God will sort it out if you let him. He'll not let you down. The manna was complete.

Not to raise your hackles, but 1) everything is being studied - if you have poured over thousands of biomedical journals, you'll know this, even though there's no apparent profit. 2) There's substantial money in extracts, even if they're 'natural source', amino acids or unpatented. Just the lab supply business to run experiments is worth billions. Tons of super sterile material courriered around the world every day. Lab Research, Education, Clinical Trials, endless. Thousands of University Centres, Government Agencies, and the Pharma business themselves with their own research teams. Everything is being patented as found in recent legislation, Codex Alimentarius or the financial pages. Big Pharma & Agra are drooling as they buy up lawmakers - chasing profits while the sky is about to split.

It seems you're dogging hard for a solution, when the problem comes from a textbook, thus theoretical at the moment. Your concern is justified, but God is still alive, Jesus still at His right hand. I'm unconcerned if someone chooses meat unless they wish to avoid it. Then they should gather up all the clues presented and exercise due diligence. No point in murmuring about possible answers if untried. The more I murmur, the closer and simpler the solution. The Inverse Whine Law.
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Lysine is found in alfalfa sprouts, apples, apricots, beets, carrots, celery, cucumbers,figs, grapes, papayas, pears beets, carrots, celery, cucumber, dandelion greens, parsley, potatoes, spinach, turnip greens, sunflower seeds and soybean sprouts. Probably found in many other foods as well. A wide variety of fruit, veg, grains, nuts as natural as possible is well to eat!

KAL brand Nutrional Yeast Flakes: Two heaping tablespoons / Lysine 704 mg
http://www.myvitanet.com/nutyeasflak.html

Twin Labs Nutrional Yeast powder: Tablespoonful / L-Lysine 560 mg
http://www.vitanetonline.com/description/.../Nutritional-Yeast-Powder/






Foods with highest ratio of Lysine:Tryptophan in Vegetables and Vegetable Products. Not sure how to use the info!
http://www.nutritiondata.com/foods-011990500100000000000-1.html

An interesting food! Moringa oleifera

Good finds crater.

Green, how much daily Lysine is required for your subject?

Years ago nutritional yeast (yellow engevita flakes) were all the rage. It was easy to add one or two teaspoons to a glass of orange juice, or a salad.

Crater and Gordon,

From the best evidence that I can gather, it would seem necessary to find 600 mg of Lysine per day. The Brewer's Yeast could fulfill that, and it is possible to purchase it here in Taiwan, but it is an imported product. For a sealed can of it about a pint in size (contents settle, and are less than a pint, but I've never measured it), imported from France, it costs more than $12 US. At two heaping tablespoons per day, that would be a little pricey. Health is worth something though. Nevertheless, the Lysine supplements would be cheaper. One bottle of lysine is enough to last about three to four months (each tablet would be 1000 mg lysine). I haven't priced four bottles of it, but it is almost certain to be less than the roughly $360/yr for the yeast.

To help underscore the importance of those high-lysine legumes, let's take a quick look at the lysine from some of the foods crater mentioned.

Avocado: How much of this can you eat before reaching satiety? Avocado is very filling. I suspect it would be difficult to consume more than about three 100-gram servings in a day. That would be just over half of the daily requirement, and it's expensive.

Cucumber: Here in Asia, they sometimes fry this vegetable and put it on rice. The cooking process cooks it down a bit, so one could theoretically consume more of it. However, at 13 mg lysine per 100 grams of this, to meet 600 mg lysine, one would still need to cook up, and eat, 4600 grams of it per day. That's 4.6 kg!

Summer squash: This veggie does a little better. However, due to its high Vitamin A content, consuming large quantities of it could contribute to an overdose of Vitamin A. Just half a cup of squash is said to contain about 1000 mg of Vitamin A (and I have no idea how that translates into I.U.). I sometimes get a headache or sore eyes if I eat too much squash. Anyone else ever experience that?

Sunflower seeds: Again, this is a very concentrated food. It would be difficult to consume a full 100 grams of sunflower seeds in a day. If this were possible, it certainly looks like a good source of lysine.

These foods are available here. I have guesstimated that an average day, without meat or legumes, provides somewhere between one and two hundred milligrams of lysine on the local fare. However, perhaps if we were to concentrate on more avocado, squash, and sunflower seeds this could be doubled. It still seems like a stretch to me to consistently get a minimum of 600 mg per day. Apparently it is not a problem to get more--so we could take the diet up higher without injury (to a point I'm sure), but the body will not store the excess.

From that first list, given the situation here, the following are not options: alfalfa sprouts, apricots, figs, dandelion greens, potatoes, and soybean sprouts.

Thank you for the list, though! I appreciate the links as well, so that I can look up the information.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

PS -- In my "dairy days" I used to love putting food yeast on vanilla ice cream....mmm, mmm! I do like food yeast, but have had to wean myself of it and similar "luxuries" here.

Green, what's the weight of two spoonfuls of yeast?

That's a good question. I don't know the answer. I do know that yeast is not heavy when compared to its volume. Of all the foods I have packed into my luggage when traveling, flake yeast was definitely the lightest (i.e. required more space per pound). If you bring large amounts of it, it does add up, but just a spoonful? I have no idea.

There are at least two kinds, though. The one I described as imported from France is the flake variety. There is another one in powder form but I don't remember its price. It is also imported. I'm sure the powdered kind would be heavier.

From what crater posted, it would seem that of the flake yeast variety one would need about eight teaspoons of it for a daily dose, and perhaps just three teaspoons of the powdered variety--assuming that is the only difference between those brands. (And we don't have those brands here, naturally.)

I do wonder if Sarah comes back if she will find an answer here to her questions. I feel like I've adopted her topic!

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

There is a history and a current population being Vegan in Taiwan for centuries because of their religious Buddhist belief? Monks and nuns in Taiwan have done it for centuries.

Is there any documentation of lysine deficiencies in these stricted Buddhist believing people?

That's a good question. I know most of them use peanuts and soybeans, among other legumes. At some Buddhist restaurants here it is possible to order peanut tofu (tofu made from peanuts instead of from soybeans). It is good.

There are tribal groups in Taiwan who have the highest prevalence of G6PD disorder. They are not predominantly Buddhist, however. The Buddhists seem to be those of the Chinese people and of the Japanese descent (remnants from the Japanese occupation of Taiwan). I'm sure there must be some cases of the favism among Buddhists, but if there were any documentation of it, it would likely be in Chinese, which I do not read.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Green, let's consider Crater's post. I think we've arrived.


• If 100g sunflower seed furnishes 912mg lysine, then 65g of seeds will render the required 600mg.

Spread over two meals, 65 grams is not excessive, a little more than an ounce at each meal. If complemented by other lysine sources, even less.

• And it's quite possible one's protein requirement is lower if uncooked.

• A local health store sells engevita flakes for CDN $20.00/kg, Red Star Yeast @ $30.00/kg. If you stayed off ice cream, how long would a kilo last?

Small update here. Some good news and some bad. Let's get the bad out of the way first. I asked about the sunflower seeds yesterday, and was told they are off the list due to allergies. I had begun to have some very positive thoughts about sunflower seeds, only to be disappointed on that count.

Here's the good news, but still preliminary. It seems that Lamb's Quarters may be in Taiwan, especially in the sunny south. I have yet to see one. Inquiries were made with a biologist at a local university who claims the plant is in Taiwan, so we may be able to locate some. Having said that, I still have yet to see it, and errors in translation are possible. Apparently, three specimens were collected by someone else that I may be able to look at later today. (I would recognize it in a hurry if I had it in hand.)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Well, they weren't Lamb's Quarters. Much more similar to some kind of milkweed with mini-dandelion style flowers, but not milky sap. Also, the leaves were much broader and larger than Lamb's Quarters. Oh well. I now begin to wonder if there hasn't been an error in translation. No one that I have talked to here knows what the plant is.

Found a place on eBay that sells the seeds and promotes the nutritional value of Lamb's Quarters. The seeds were cheap, too. I know Taiwan's laws, though, and it's a no-can-do. Sigh. If I don't find them here...

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You have heard of "Chia Pets"? Where you place chia seed on a clay animal shape and it sprouts a green body! They have been around for a long time! Probablly imported to the US for China!






Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds carries them to plant! (Just a side note, The two seed stores are open Sun - Fri, and closed Sat! Maybe a Sabbath keeper? I read about the founder, some years ago. He was home schooled and started the business at age 17, ten years ago!
http://rareseeds.com/cart/products/Chia_Crown_Jewels-1596-87.html

Apparently it is in the (sage / salvia ) mint family! I am seeing the seed sold in bulk in one of our big grocery stores that has a good natural food section. Aslo it is sold in drink mixes! I would think that the seeds purchased from the bulk foods could be planted. I bought some last summer, and I think I will try to grow some! It may only be an annual for me as it grows in Central America and Mexico!

Looks like there are a number of sites with Chia Seed Recipes !

While perambulating through a bulk food store I happened upon a bin of flaked nutritional yeast, and guess who sprang to mind???

My opportunity for anecdotal research began with a sample acquistion of "Flaked *Redstar* Nutritional Yeast". ($30.00/kg)

Messing in the kitchen, extrapolation proffered about 415 teaspoons/kg.
These were not heaping spoonfuls, nor level, but generous, ample - as one would naturally spoon out such a product. I guesstimate about 2.5 grams per teaspoonful. Since *Redstar* is a brand name, specs on the lysine content should be available. (I forgot the ice cream)
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I like nutritional yeast on toast and popcorn, but I mainly use it in cooking adding it to soups, gravies, sauces, and loaves. Many vegan recipes call for it! Especially in vegan cheese! Most recipes call for a tablespoon or two, and so it is used in combination of other ingredients!

Just ran across this statement that someone made on fb, and thought it might be of interest?

Gordon, just noticed your post thanks to Crater's update here. Interesting figures. If you ever try food yeast on ice cream, let me know how you liked it. (I only liked it on certain kinds, like vanilla ice cream.)

Crater, I've spotted Lamb's Quarters in the mountain regions of Thailand before (a number of years ago). I told the locals they were edible, and they were rather surprised, thinking they were just weeds. I have yet, however, to spot them in Taiwan. I've given up looking, actually.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.