Exactly MM. Tom's beliefs bring God down to our level, because he tries to explain everything according to human understanding, instead of just believing what the Bible and Ellen White say.

Tom also believes that God cannot really know the future. That He only makes educated guesses based on the possibilities, and the potential. Isn't that right Tom.

Do you not claim that God didn't know that Satan would sin? When the prophet plainly states otherwise?

The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Romans 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. {DA 22}

Thank you for answering my question. In what sense do you think Satan will make the “weak strong”?


Will He obtain their permission first? Or, will He force it on them?


What truth will God cause the wicked to understand during the final judgment? And, will it be new to them? Or, will they already be familiar with it? Is it necessary to understand the truth in order to suffer and die?


I’m not stupid or retarded or mentally handicapped in any way. If your view of things is correct and true you should be able to explain so a child can understand it. Please try again. My questions are very basic and should be easy to answer clearly and concisely. Why do you believe understanding the truth and the character of God will cause the wicked to suffer and die?


Let’s say the wicked do not revisit their sins during judgment and God does not cause them to understand the truth or understand His character, what, then, do you think would cause them to suffer and die? Also, if, as you say, God need not do anything (other than resurrect them) for the wicked to suffer and die according to their sinfulness, why, then, do you think God will cause them to understand the truth and to understand His character? Wouldn’t such actions on the part of God unnecessarily add to their suffering? That is, if they would suffer and die anyhow, why would a loving God do something that will cause them more suffering?


Same questions as above. If they would suffer and die anyhow, why, then, do you think Jesus will do something that will unnecessarily add to their suffering?


What does it matter since you believe they would suffer and die anyhow without God causing them to understand the truth and without Him causing them to understand His character? Nevertheless, you merely mentioned that God will get in their heads through His Spirit and tell them the truth about His character and that it will cause them to suffer intense emotional pain and agony. So again, why do you believe a loving God would do such a thing if it isn’t necessary?


Again, will God obtain their permission to get in their heads through His Spirit and cause them to understand the truth and to cause them to understand His character? Also, will this be the first time they’ve ever heard such things? If not, why didn’t it cause them to suffer and die the first time they understood it? Do you think understanding it gradually over a period of time prevents it from causing them to suffer and die? If so, why do you think it will cause them to suffer and die when they hear it again during judgment?


So, do you believe all this suffering and dying would happen whether or not God chooses to get in their heads and cause them to understand the truth and to understand His character?


“This” is referring to your belief Jesus will cause the wicked to understand His character by getting in their heads through His Spirit and causing them to understand it. Here you say they would suffer without it just not as much as they would with it. So, the question is – Do you believe the suffering and death they would experience without Jesus getting in their heads and causing them to understand the truth and His character would be sufficient? Or, do you think it is necessary for Jesus to cause them to understand the truth and His character?


Did you quote that passage to explain what you believe about the final judgment? Or, were you trying to explain something unrelated? Who wrote the passage you quoted? What forces in man and nature did the author have in mind? Was it necessary for God to hold them in check before A&E sinned?

Didn't the quote say that he inspires them with his spirit and energy?

M: . . . Also, how do you think God will spiritually reveal Himself to the wicked? . . . .

T: By speaking to their mind through His Spirit.



Will God obtain people's permission before speaking to them? This is what you're asking? How could God do that without speaking to them?



I think the quote speaks of God's character.



The quote made it sound like it would be new.



You've already asked this several times. Each time I've answered it's not necessary, but it's sufficient.



I'll look up the quote when I get home. I'm sure I couldn't improve on what Ty said, and since he's already put in a lot of effort to explain it, I'll leverage that. Besides, it's not like I haven't answered this question a dozen times for you in the past. I've referenced DA 764, DA 107-108, and explained things in as detailed a fashion as I could. It was only after that that I decided to try quoting Ty.



Selfishness.



This sounds like you're supposing the reason God does these things is to cause them suffering and death. This is the very idea I've been opposing from the beginning. God's purpose is not to cause anyone suffering.

God reveals the truth to the wicked because they need to know. That's the only way they can be a meaningful voice in the vindication of God's character. GC 672, if memory serves, describes how the entire Universe will declare that God has been just and merciful in all His dealings, that He has been entirely innocent of all the results of sin, and of the accusations of the enemy. The wicked could not join in this if they did not understand it.



He's not doing anything to cause them suffering. The suffering is a by-product of their sin. Sin always leads to suffering. This is because the root of sin is selfishness, and selfishness can do no other than to lead to misery, suffering and death. There's nothing God can do about this other than heal a person of sin, but these have refused to be healed.



I don't understand what you're asking here.



This isn't what I said. As to why God will do the things I've said He will, I addressed this.



You asked this already (in this post).



You asked this already (in this post).



They didn't understand it, apparently. Also you're assuming this causes their death.



MM, please focus on the root problem. The root problem is selfishness. Selfishness can do no other than to result in misery, suffering and death. This is why the SOP tells us that suffering and death are inevitable wherever there is sin. The only thing God could do to prevent this is to heal people of their selfishness, but those in the second resurrection refuse to God to heal them.



They suffer and die because of their selfishness, not because of something God is doing to them.



I've answered this many times. I've said that selfishness can do no other than lead to misery, suffering and death.



I didn't say this. I referenced a quote, which I'll have to find, and I'm quite sure this isn't the language the SOP used, and it's not the language I used. I don't know why you're using it.



I don't recall saying this. Did I really? What was the context?



Sufficient for what?



Why is there an "or" here? Why are you thinking it's the one thing or the other?

No, this is wrong. God knows the future perfectly. Our difference is ontological, not epistemological.



I said not as a certainty.



She didn't say as a certainty.

She said a number of things indicating the future is Open. For example:



How was heaven imperiled?

No. It said he makes them strong and then he inspires them to join in an attack against the city.


You said God wouldn’t have to be physically present to reveal Himself to the wicked, that He need only speak to their mind through His Spirit. Do you think the Spirit must be physically present to speak to their minds? And, what if they’re deaf? How will He speak to the deaf?


What quote?


If it’s not necessary, why will God do it? Will it cause additional suffering? If so, how and why?


You have made it clear you believe understanding the truth and God’s character will cause the wicked to suffer. But do you think it will cause them to die? Also, do you think understanding the truth and God’s character will cause the wicked to suffer for the same reasons Jesus suffered on the cross? Or, do you think the reasons Jesus suffered on the cross are very much different than the reasons the wicked will suffer?


Do you think being selfish is sufficient to cause them to suffer and die? Or, do you think Jesus must speak to their minds through His Spirit for their sins and selfishness to cause them to suffer and die?


Above I asked, “Is it necessary to understand the truth in order to suffer and die” and you responded, “it's not necessary, but it's sufficient.” Now you say, “God reveals the truth to the wicked because they need to know”, otherwise they “could not join in [vindicating God] if they did not understand it.” How do you explain the apparent contradiction?


Your theory doesn’t explain why you believe God will speak to their minds without their permission, or why you believe they do not simply walk away so they don’t have to hear what God has to say. Since hearing what He has to say will cause them to suffer more, why won’t they simply stop their ears or walk away?


Do you think they will understand it when God explains it to them during the final judgment? Do you think understanding it will cause them to die?

It said, “He makes the weak strong and inspires all with his own spirit and energy." You asked how he makes them strong. I asked if the quote didn't say by inspiring with his spirit and energy. It looks to me that this is what it says.



This is true, isn't it? That is how He reveals Himself to us, isn't it?



What does this mean?



You don't think the deaf can think? The deaf think visually. God would communicate with them visually, in sign language, of course, assuming that's their language.



I'm seeing about finding it. Maybe tomorrow.



As I've said several times, it's not God's purpose to cause them suffering.



I've answered this too. There is different suffering involved.

Imagine you're living in sin. Because you have given yourself over to selfishness, so you suffer, all the time. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth to you. This causes you suffering too. The Holy Spirit is not revealing the truth to cause you suffering, but it does cause you suffering. That's not His intent, but it happens, because of your selfishness.



Actually I think I've repeatedly said that sin, selfishness, cause their suffering. I think I've been emphasizing this as strongly as I can.



I think their sin and selfishness result in their suffering and death.



It's not understanding the truth that causes suffering, but sin and selfishness. Christ's suffering came as a result of taking sin and selfishness upon Him. He Himself was neither sinful nor selfish, but our sinfulness and selfishness caused Him to suffer.



In both cases sin is what caused suffering. The SOP says that Christ "suffered the death that was ours." Also that Christ "suffered the anguish the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads for the guilty race."



Of course. Selfishness has to lead to suffering and death. How could it not?



No, of course not.




I think you're misunderstanding something I said. I don't see even the hint of a contradiction.



How would God get their permission without speaking to them?



I think they'll want to hear what God has to say.



God is speaking to them about their lives, and the lives of those with whom they had to do. People are interested in these things.



As I've said several times, this is what I believe the quote says.



I think their selfishness and sin causes them to die, as I've said many times. If you ask me again, I'll continue to say it again.

I see what you mean. But do you agree it could mean what I’m saying? Or, are you convinced there is absolutely no way it can mean that?


Yes, it is one way, but not the only way. However, we are discussing the final judgment. I hear you saying God will get in their heads and cause the wicked to understand the truth about His character. I also hear you saying it is unnecessary, and that it will cause them suffering above and beyond what it is natural and inevitable. Have I misunderstood you?


I’m responding to your idea that God need not be physically present during the final judgment for the wicked to understand the truth about His character or to experience additional suffering as a result. I hear you saying God will get in their heads and cause them to understand the truth about His character. My question is – Will He obtain their permission to get in their heads and cause them to understand the truth about His character? Will He give them the option not to have that experience?


Okay. In particular what new truths will He cause them to understand for the first time during final judgment.


True, God does nothing for the sole purpose of causing pain and suffering. He does what He does in the interest of truth and justice. By law He is required to act in harmony with the demands of law and justice. Of course He wishes things had played out differently so that circumstances didn’t force Him to do “strange” things. However, all that aside, you didn’t address my question. If getting in their heads and causing them to understand the truth about His character, and if it will cause additional unnecessary suffering, why, then, do you think God will do it? Why not simply let things run what you believe to be the natural course of sin and selfishness?


True, that’s what you’ve been emphasizing. However, my questions are aimed at different aspects of your theory. Have I misunderstood you? Do you or do you not believe getting in their heads and causing them to understand the truth about His character will cause them additional unnecessary suffering?


You didn’t answer my question. Are you unwilling to answer my question?


I hear you saying the wicked will suffer for the same reasons Jesus did. Have I understood you correctly? Also, are you saying God getting in their heads and causing them to understand the truth about His character will not cause them additional unnecessary suffering?


So, it sounds like you are definitely saying the wicked will suffer for the same reasons Jesus suffered. Does that mean you believe the wicked will suffer because sin has created a gulf between them and the Father they love so dearly and so desperately want to be with? Do you think they will suffer because they hate sin so thoroughly and love righteousness so much more?


Thank you for answering my question. You’ve made it abundantly clear you believe sin and selfishness is sufficient to cause suffering and death during the final judgment. I take it you also believe God need do nothing else, that leaving them to experience the natural consequences of sin is sufficient to satisfy the reasons why He resurrected them.


Once again you’ve made it crystal clear you believe leaving them to suffer the natural course of sin and selfishness adequately satisfies the loving and just demands of law and justice. So why do something that will unnecessarily add to their suffering?


So which one do you believe? Do you believe they “need to know” or do you believe it is “not necessary” for God to get in their heads and cause them to understand the truth about His character?


God would get their permission to cause them to understand the truth about His character and the resulting additional unnecessary suffering by simply asking them if He has their permission to do so. I am quite convinced they would refuse to permit it if God caused them to understand just exactly how painful it will be. Do you know of anyone who would willingly submit themselves to additional unnecessary suffering if it was avoidable or if it wasn’t required?


True, that’s what you say it says. Let’s look at the quote and then I can see for myself. Please post it at your earliest convenience. Thank you.


Oh, I see. Thank you for being honest and candid. I take it you believe getting in their heads and causing them to understand the truth about His character will only cause them to experience additional unnecessary suffering but it will not cause them to die? Instead, you believe they will suffer for the same reasons Jesus did and will die of heart failure due to broken heart syndrome just like Jesus did. Is this correct?

How do you think he makes them strong?



No, this isn't what I said. I don't understand "get in their heads" to mean what I said. I understand this expression to mean to understand what another person is thinking.



What is "it"? What are you saying is unnecessary? Unnecessary in what context? You are assuming the judgment is neither natural or inevitable? (that looks to be implicit in your question).



No, I've not said this. I think God will communicate to the truth to the wicked, and they will understand something of this. This is what I understood the quote I read to say which I can't find. I just read it recently too. A bit annoying.



I said that God will communicate to them. Now how could God get their permission without communicating to them?



Of not knowing the truth? I don't think God will force people to know the truth against their will, if that's what you're asking.

What does any of this have to do with someone being deaf? I really didn't understand why you were asking this.



I said that God will communicate to them in regards to His character, and they will be able to understand something about it. I don't know where you got the idea you just stated from.



Causing people to suffer pain has nothing to do with justice.



By law He is required to act in harmony with the demands of the law. Or what? What's the penalty for God not acting in harmony with the demands of the law? Remember that a law with no penalty has no force. So by saying that God is required to act in harmony with the law, what is God's penalty for not doing so, and who enforces that penalty?

I think this way of conceptualizing things is quite silly. Isn't the law a transcript of God's character? As such, what sense would it make to say that God is required to act in harmony with it? That's just another way of saying that God is required to act like Himself. It's certainly not like God to artificially cause suffering, so saying that the law requires Him to act in harmony with the law would mean He must not artificially cause suffering.



The strange thing is leaving Satan and His host to reap the full result of their sin. Yes, God would have preferred that they repent.



Again, I never said anything about God getting to their heads. I've also answered the question several times about why God communicates the truth to them.



Why would the natural course of sin not involve God's ever communicating the truth to them?



Again, I've not said anything about God getting in their heads. In answer to your question, no, this isn't what I think. I've said what I think several times, which is that God communicates the truth to them, and this is necessary in order for them to form a part of the group, which consists of the entire Universe (excluding those who could not render an intelligent decision), which vindicates God's character. You agree with this, don't you? That is, that God communicates the truth to each one, and every knee will bow, acknowledging that God has acted rightly, in the best interests of each person, denying Himself.



How is this not an answer to your question? You're asking about the cause of death of the wicked, so I told you.



I think this is too simplistic.



I think so.



I didn't say anything about God getting in their heads. So no, I'm not saying this.



Good! I'm glad this is clear. I'm sorry I had to repeat them so many times to make it clear, but I'm glad it's clear.



No, not at all. First of all, you seem to be assuming that the natural consequences of sin means God never communicates the truth to them.

Secondly I've explained what the reasons are for God's resurrecting them. Do you remember what I said the principle reason is? It's the vindication of God's government and character. How could God not communicate the truth to them and accomplish this?



No, this isn't what I'm saying. First of all, I'm quite sure what you mean by the phrase "leaving them to suffer the natural course of sin and selfishness" doesn't mean the same thing I would mean by this phrase, as you seem to think that this would mean that God never communicates the truth to them. Secondly I would not say that the natural course of sin and selfishness adequately satisfies the loving and just demands of the law, but more along the lines that "the natural course of sin and selfishness" *is* "the loving and just demands of the law" (in quotes, emphasizing that these are your words, not mine).



Why do you think it's unnecessary? Communicating the truth is necessary to achieve the purposes of the resurrection, the principle reason being the vindication of God's character and government. There's nothing unnecessary happening here.



1.I never said anything about God getting in their heads.
2.I never said anything God did was unnecessary.
3.I believe the lost need to know the truth in order to render judgment.



You're assuming something unnecessary is happening. I disagree.



So you think God will force people to suffer arbitrarily against their will?



People do things which result in suffering all the time. Please bear in mind that what causes the suffering is selfishness and sin. So if God asks them, "What do you prefer? Sin and selfishness, or righteousness?" and they answer "sin and selfishness" then are they not choosing suffering?



So far I'm not having much luck, but I'll try some more.



1.I didn't say anything about "getting in their heads."
2.God causes them to understand the truth by communicating the truth to them, and helping them understand it.
3.I'm against any idea of "additional unnecessary suffering."



No. I didn't say this. Didn't I speak of how sin can cause death in different ways besides heart failure? I'm pretty sure I did.

I believe evil angels have the ability to do all kinds of things humans cannot do. I believe they can “possess” humans and override human functions and make it appear as though they are doing supernatural things. For example, I believe they can make it appear as though humans can fly or lift heavy objects or speak in unknown tongues, etc. I also believe evil angels can make humans sick and then make them well. With these thoughts in mind I have no problem believing evil angels will be able to make resurrected sinners strong, even to the point of enabling the blind to see, the deaf to hear, the lame to run, etc. No, they won’t actually heal them, but they will make it seem as though such functions have been restored miraculously. See what I mean?


True, “get in their heads” can mean nothing more than seeing things from their perspective. However, please note that I qualified the meaning of “get in their heads” by adding “and cause the wicked to understand the truth about His character”. Are you of the opinion there is no way “get in their heads” can be expanded to I include this idea?


By “it” I mean God causing them to understand the truth about His character in a way the results in them experiencing additional suffering above and beyond what you believe will happen inevitably and naturally during the final judgment.


Yeah, I know how frustrating it can be to have read a great passage and then not be able to find it again. Jesus will help you find it soon. When you wrote, “God will speak the truth to their minds through the Holy Spirit” do you mean something entirely different than what I mean by saying, “God will get in their heads and cause them to understand the truth about His character”? In both cases both can happen without God having to be physically present. He can accomplish it remotely. He is, after all, omnipresent.


Earlier you intimated you believe God can communicate to the minds of the wicked who can neither see nor hear, that He does not have to be physically present to cause them to understand the truth about His character. I agree with you that God can do this. But He also has the options not to do it. And, to be fair, the wicked should also have the option to refuse to let God do it to them. I also agree with you God will not force it on them. So, my question remains - Will He obtain their permission to “get in their heads” and cause them to understand the truth about His character? (Please apply my definition of “get in their heads” as explained above).


Thank you for setting the record right. I apologize for misunderstanding what you wrote. Do you think God will not communicate anything new about His character to them?


True. Pain and suffering are merely the inevitable result of punishment.


Oh yeah, I forgot you hate the idea that God created a law that requires Him to act in harmony with it. As you know, though, the character of God is on trial. The question is – Is the law of God truly holy, just, and good? Or, is it defective and impossible to obey and be happy? If God acts in harmony with the law will everything turn out right and will everyone be happy?


I realize you believe the only thing “strange” God is forced to do is to withdraw His protection and permit sinners to suffer the real results of sinning, namely, heart failure due to broken heart syndrome. However, the fact is you also believe God will get in their heads and cause them to understand the truth about His character, which will, in turn, cause them to suffer additional and unnecessary suffering. From where I’m standing I see a problem with your two views. Do you see what I mean?


Do you believe God will communicate the truth about His character to the wicked in a way that will cause them to understand it and to suffer additional unnecessary emotional pain? Or, do you believe “they need know” it?


We’re discussing the final judgment, right? We’re not discussing any other period of time. God did everything He could to enlighten and save them before they died. You have repeatedly affirmed that it is not necessary for the wicked to understand the truth about God’s character in order for them to suffer and die according to their sinfulness. You have repeatedly said simply being resurrected and then permitted to experience the natural, inevitable full force of their sin and selfishness is sufficient (adequate, enough) to satisfy the demands of law and justice, that God need not do anything else. Do you believe it is necessary for God to communicate to them the truth about His character? And, do you believe it will result in them suffering above and beyond what you believe will happen naturally?


Yes, I believe every knee will bow and in so doing they will vindicate God. However, my question is aimed at a different aspect, namely, do you believe understanding the truth about God’s character will cause them to experience additional suffering above and beyond what you believe will be the natural, inevitable result of being sinful and selfish?


Do you not believe God communicating the truth about His character to them will cause additional suffering and death? Or, do you believe it will only cause additional suffering above and beyond what you believe will be the natural, inevitable result of being sinful and selfish?


Do you believe the wicked will suffer for the same reasons Jesus did? Or, do you think there is more to it? If so, what else do you believe about it?


Please clarify where I have understood you correctly.


I’m glad too. So, since it is sufficient, why do you think God will communicate the truth about His character to them in a way that results in them suffering above and beyond what you believe will be the natural, inevitable result of being sinful and selfish?


Again, we’re talking about the final judgment. Do you think God will wait until then to communicate to them the truth about His character? Or, do you believe He did so before they died? If so, is it necessary for Him to do it again during the final judgment? And, do you believe it will result in them suffering above and beyond what you believe will be the natural and inevitable result of being sinful and selfish?


I believe God communicated the truth about His character to them before they died. I also believe He will replay the history of the world to them during the final judgment, and that they will admit God is right, that they are wrong, and that they deserve to die. I believe the radiant fire light of God’s person and presence will cause the wicked to suffer and die according to their sinfulness. I do not believe simply being sinful and selfish will cause them to suffer and die. You, on the other hand, seem to be saying the wicked will suffer and die as a natural and inevitable result of God withdrawing His protection and leaving them to suffer the natural course of being sinful and selfish. Have I misunderstood your view?


My question is aimed at the resulting additional suffering. Do you believe understanding the truth about God’s character will result in the wicked experiencing additional suffering above and beyond what you believe will be the natural and inevitable result of being sinful and selfish?


1. Above (this post) I clarified what I mean by the expression “get in their heads”. Do you think it means the same thing as you saying, “God will speak the truth to their minds through the Holy Spirit”? If not, please explain why you think they do not mean the same thing.
2. Do you believe it is necessary for God to communicate the truth about His character to them during the final judgment in a way that will result in them understanding it?
3. Do you believe God communicated the truth to them before they died? Or, do you believe He waits to do it during the final judgment?


My question is aimed at God obtaining their permission.


My question is aimed at what you believe. Do you believe God will cause them to understand the truth without obtaining their permission? Or, do you think they will already know it and that God needs to do nothing else?


My question is aimed at what you believe. Do you believe the wicked will willingly give God permission to cause them to understand the truth knowing it will also result in them suffering additional emotional pain and agony above and beyond what will happen naturally simply because they are sinful and selfish?


Do you need the quote to verify what you believe? Or, do you think we should believe you simply because you say so?


1. See my response above.
2. Is it necessary?
3. Will it cause them to suffer above and beyond what you believe will be the natural and inevitable result of being sinful and selfish?


Do you believe the wicked will suffer for the same reasons did? And, do you believe they will die for the same reasons Jesus did? If not, why do you insist we study the reasons why Jesus suffered and died in order to understand the reasons why the wicked will suffer and die?

Why? I'm aware of an SOP statement that says that Satan can remove disease/sickness that he himself inflicted upon them, but I'm aware of no statement saying that Satan heals.



By making them sick and making them well, you mean remove the sickness they themselves gave? If so, I think that's possible.

We're told the lost are resurrected with the same bodies that they had when they died. So I don't think there will be any major changes. We know the effects of drugs, like caffeine and others, so I suppose they could do something like that.



What I said was that God communicated with them. This is what I meant.



I explained before what I thought was happening. Their suffering is caused by their own sin. Here's the principle explained:



God doesn't do something to make them suffer. He is simply Himself. He reveals the truth, and this results in suffering to them because of their sin.

Here's another place discussing this principle:



Notice both of these speak to "consuming fire." It also brings out that what happens is of their own doing.



Thanks. I looked again, but couldn't find it.



I meant that God will communicate with them, from His mind to theirs, the same way He communicates with everybody (baring the times when He spoke audibly through Christ).



How would God communicate to people who are deaf and blind other than directly to their minds? They can't see or hear.



You're whole way of thinking of things is in terms of God's doing something to them. This is not what I've been saying, nor how I think.



I've asked you several times now how God can ask them permission to communicate to them without communicating to them.



If you mean new in the sense that it's new to them, yes.



No, not punishment. Sin.



This explains things quite well. Sin broke the order that God established, and the result is discord, so that wherever there is sin, suffering and death are inevitable.

Please note God does nothing to make this happen. It's the product of sin, of breaking the order God has established. It's the fruit of selfishness.



I didn't say I hated it. It's illogical. I explained why.



If God is on trial, isn't the question primarily if God is truly holy, just and good?



How can God not in harmony with His law if His law is a transcript of His character? By the way, you didn't respond to any of my questions or points. It really doesn't make sense to say that God is required to keep His law, given that the law is a transcript of character.

You said, "By law He is required to act in harmony with the demands of law and justice." If you consider carefully that God is by nature just, and His law is a transcript of His character, it seems to me that it should be clear to see why what you wrote isn't really saying anything other than God must act like Himself because of who He is in character.





Yes.



No. I said in the post you're responding to: "I'm against any idea of "additional unnecessary suffering." This wasn't clear?



Yes, they need to know what God communicates to them.



When you put words in my mouth, do you realize you're doing this? You do this a lot. A lot, lot, lot.

I didn't say the above.



Another example. I said nothing about God "getting in their heads." I've said repeatedly that God communicates with them.



And again. I looked on Google, and every example I saw of this expression is what I said. I could find no example of usage other than this.

What I said is that God communicates with them. Why do you switch what I said, which is clear (anyone understand what "God communicates to them" means) with something which means something completely different to anyone else but you? Certainly it's not fair for you to keep representing this as my thought when I've objected to it.



I see I've not said any of these things. I've denied multiple times that God causes them unnecessary suffering. Did you not notice this? Are you intentionally ignoring what I said?

I don't understand this.



Yes. The wicked would suffer and die no matter what God did. Suffering and death is inevitable wherever there is sin (AG 53).



I don't recall saying this even once, let along repeatedly.



Yes. I've said this many times.



This question is again bringing up the problem I addressed earlier. You have the idea that God cannot communicate the truth to them without doing something unnatural. This is implicit in your question. I don't share this idea.



No.



No and no.



I believe both Jesus and the wicked suffered because of sin. I believe Jesus felt the agony the wicked will suffer in the final judgment. I believe Christ suffered the second death ("the death that was ours.")



Yes, there's more to it.



Christ took upon Him the sins of the world. That is, everybody's sin. As we experience righteousness as if it were our own, even though it's Christ's, so He experienced our sin as if it were His. He felt what those who reject God will feel, only much more so, because He took upon Him everybody's sin, and He suffered more intensely because He was sinless and perfect in character.

Sins causes us to believe things about God which are not true, and we see this effect in what happened to Christ. Psalm 22 is a good example of this. However, Christ overcame this effect of sin by faith, trusting in what He knew of God as revealed in the Scriptures, and His own experience. The lost will not have this to fall back upon, and so will not be able to bear the effects of sin. As the SOP puts it, if we had to bear our own guilt, it would crush us. The wicked will have to bear their own guilt, and this will be too much for them.

Of course, the cross will be the study of eternity, so it's hardly possible to cover it in a few sentences.



I don't.



He tried, of course, but was not permitted to do so.



More importantly, He will replay the history of their own lives.



I think this makes no sense. It's not a physical issue, but a spiritual one. The truth causes their suffering, not something artificial.



Wherever there is sin, suffering and death are inevitable (AG 53).



I don't think I've said this. Haven't I quoted DA 764, and said I didn't want to go beyond that?



No.



As I said earlier, I've seen no reference to it meaning other than what I said it meant. As I've said, what I meant is that God communicates to them. I think this is a clear way of expressing the idea.



Yes, to the extent necessary to intelligently render judgment.



I'm sure He tried to.



The purposes are different. Before death, God was trying to save them. In the judgment, they need information to render judgment.

(More later)