|
Forums118
Topics9,218
Posts195,997
Members1,324
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12342
01/28/05 10:58 AM
01/28/05 10:58 AM
|
Charter Member
SDA
Active Member 2020
Senior Member
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 719
East Coast Canada
|
|
Tom: your statement of "...God satisfies His thirst for vengeance by tormenting the wicked with liquid fire?" Is very "whacked!" you delve into the word but are not seeing the peace that is in it! God states that vengance is His, not ours! This is because He is PERFECT and is able to cleanse this mess in a PERFECT way. There is no need for us to "humanize" God, and this is what I read from your posts.
-Anyone else agree or disagree with my above statements?
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12343
01/28/05 07:20 PM
01/28/05 07:20 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Tom, I notice you didn't bother posting the SOP quotes where she plainly says God punishes the unsaved and then destroys them with fire and brimstone in the lake of fire. Instead, the view you have adopted insists that her statements must be interpreted symbolically, not literally. You seem to be cool with the idea that sinners simply melt down in the presence of God's glory. But, again, how is this less offensive to you?
Richard, in all fairness to Tom, I am the one who posted God satisfies His thirst for vengeance and justice by punishing and destroying the sinners, who despised and rejected the blood of Jesus, in the lake of fire. Paul also makes this point very clear, as well as Sister White. Considering everything Jesus has done to save us, anyone who despises and rejects Him are worthy of the most awful punishment and death. Of course, God is not willing that any should perish, but when the limits of His mercy are exhausted ....
Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
1SM 193
He lets him [certain slaves] be as though he had not been; while the master has to suffer the seven last plagues, and then come up in the second resurrection, and suffer the second, most awful death. Then the wrath of God will be appeased. {1SM 193.1}
SR 388
The soul that sinneth, it shall die an everlasting death--a death from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {SR 388.1}
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12344
01/30/05 08:08 AM
01/30/05 08:08 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
Tom, I notice you didn't bother posting the SOP quotes where she plainly says God punishes the unsaved and then destroys them with fire and brimstone in the lake of fire.
You already posted them. Why should I repost them? I was addressing what the things she wrote meant by quoting other statements of hers which go into these things in much greater deatil. For example, the entire first chapter of the Great Controversy deals with this theme, from which I quoted several paragraphs.
quote:
Instead, the view you have adopted insists that her statements must be interpreted symbolically, not literally.
The view "I" adopted from from her own words! Shouldn't she be allowed to explain what she meant? When she devotes entire chapters to a them, shouldn't they be considered?
quote:
You seem to be cool with the idea that sinners simply melt down in the presence of God's glory. But, again, how is this less offensive to you?
The question as to why my view is less offensive to me than yours is a very good one Mike, but I'm frankly surprised after the many, many posts we've had you don't know the answer to this question.
Here's my view:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
Note the following points:
1) God does not destroy the wicked by an act of power.
2) The wicked reap that which they have sown.
3) They die because they cut themselves off from God, who is the source of life.
4) They receive the results of their choice.
5) God's presence is to them a consuming fire.
6) The glory of God destroys them.
In my view, God exhibits love, mercy and kindness in judgment, just as in everything else He does. In your view, He doesn't.
In my view, God is not arbitrary (i.e., the wicked do not die because of God's acting on the sole basis of individual discretion, but they die because of what they themselves choose and do). In your view, He is arbitrary (there is no intrinsic reason that the wicked should die, other than God's being blood-thirsy)
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12345
01/31/05 03:00 PM
01/31/05 03:00 PM
|
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
|
|
I have just arrived from my vacation, and haven't read this discussion, or any other about this subject, but would like to ask how the expressions "death sentence" and "death penalty", used by Ellen White, are interpreted according to the alternative view.
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12346
01/31/05 09:32 PM
01/31/05 09:32 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Penatly may be defined as: "the disadvantage or painful consequences of an action or condition." God warned that the consequences of sin would be death. This may be thought of as a "death penalty" or "death sentence." The soul that sins shall die. quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
If God had allowed Satan and his host to have received the consequences of sin immediately, those watching would have been subjected to doubt as to whether those who had died had died because of sin or because God was angry at them for rebelling against Him. Through Christ God was able to show what the consequences of sin are. Christ suffered the "death sentence"; He suffered the "death penalty," but there was not positive action on God's part -- on the contrary, God suffered with His Son. God was "crucified with Christ." As Paul puts is, Christ was "delivered for our trespasses." (Rom. 4:25)
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12347
02/01/05 01:24 AM
02/01/05 01:24 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
It's not easy to present the character of God in a balanced light regarding His wrath. I agree with a lot of what Tom is saying, but I'm also uncomfortable with some of the emphasis.
While sinners reap what they sow, we have to understand that they are not merely reaping in a vacuum. They are reaping the results of transgressing the law of the King. The harvest they reap therefore is because God, for the good of the universe, upholds and enforces His royal law personally. It’s important to not see the consequences of sin as a kind of evolutionary, inevitable process. Transgression is only transgression where the law of a person, God is violated. And the personal element means we all personally answer to God himself. This is a large part of the wrath of God I think – the terrible realization that dawns on the wicked that they stand naked and condemned personally before God whose law they have scorned.
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12348
02/01/05 04:20 AM
02/01/05 04:20 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Thank you for your input Mark. Doesn't it come down to the question of whether or not sin is really lethal? Is sin able to kill of itself? Or is it not really so bad, and it needs help? When God warned, "In the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die" did God really mean that, or did He mean, "You will be executed if you eat of that fruit"? I have made a point from the DA 764 that hasn't been dealt with by anybody. Here's the quote, and then I'll make the point again: quote:
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
OK, here's the point. When it says that the angels did not understand this, what is it that they did not understand? From the previous paragraph, we get the answer:
quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
Now what does this paragraph tell us? It tells us:
1) It is not an arbitrary act of power that destroys the wicked.
2) They reap that which they sow.
3) The place themselves so out of harmony with God that His presence is to them a consuming fire.
4) The glory of God destroys them.
Now when EGW points out that the watching angels did not understand this, what did they underand? Or rather, what would they have understood had God allowed the wicked to be destroyed immediately by His glory, if He had immediately allowed them to reap that which they had sown?
If the reason the wicked dies is because God kills them, then what EGW wrote makes absolutely no sense. If this is what God does, then the evil seeds of doubt would remain just as much after the destruction of the wicked when it actually happens as it would had God allowed it to happen earlier.
There has to be something *different* about God's allowing it to happen earlier, when it would have spawned new evil doubts, and God's allowing things to develop first. There is something very different, and EGW explains exactly what it is in the chapter.
The thing that is different if Christ's death. Christ had to die *before* the wicked are destroyed, in order for God to avoid the problem that would have come up had He not waited (creating new seeds of doubt).
Now how does Christ's death solve God's problem? Why is it that the wicked can be destroyed after Christ's death without evil seeds of doubt arising?
The reason is because Christ's death showed that sin *is* lethal. All the unfallen beings understand this "now". "Now" there is no more danger that when the wicked are destroyed that there destruction will be understood.
Satan's accusation was that God was lying when He said that sin results in death. God has proven that He was telling the truth. The death of Christ provided a way by which sin can be eliminated without risking that it would pop up again.
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12349
02/01/05 12:02 PM
02/01/05 12:02 PM
|
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
|
|
Tom,
Ellen White says:
“In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. ... The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor.” Last Day Events, 241.
Notice that she does not refer to natural laws, but to laws of a kingdom or government, and it makes no sense to speak in natural results as punishment for judicial laws. Would it make sense to say that a law whose transgression brings no natural results has no force?
The laws which constitute the foundation of any given government are not natural laws. The decalogue is the foundation of God's government, not a natural law. The transgression of the laws of your country brings an imposed punishment. You knew what the punishment was. Then, of course, when you go ahead, break these laws, and incur the punishment, you are just reaping what you sowed. But this doesn't change the fact that the punishment is imposed.
God’s wrath against sin kills sinners - the anguish, horror and suffering felt by the sinner are unbearable and inevitably lead to death. On the other hand, it is true that God's wrath can be restrained _ it has been restrained till now, and it could be restrained for ever. God has to choose to exercise His wrath in order that the sinner dies.
The mere manifestation of God's glory can kill all humans in a moment (like in the second coming), but in the second death some will take a longer time to die, others a shorter time, according to their sentence (which will be decided during the millennium). The fact that there will be a difference in the duration of the punishment, definitely characterizes it as an imposed punishment, and not as a natural consequence. Besides, I’m not sure the mere manifestation of God's physical glory kills fallen angels. Satan and his angels still remained some time in the presence of God's glory after their sin (before being cast out from heaven), and they won't die at the second coming. Satan will die only when God chooses to manifest His terrible wrath against sin, and Satan feels in his soul unbearable anguish, horror and mental suffering. It is this that will inevitably result in his death. And nothing of this seems just "natural" to me.
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12350
02/01/05 05:20 PM
02/01/05 05:20 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Rose: Notice that she does not refer to natural laws, but to laws of a kingdom or government, and it makes no sense to speak in natural results as punishment for judicial laws. Would it make sense to say that a law whose transgression brings no natural results has no force? Tom: I think yours in an excellent question. In answer to your question, I think the answer is yes, it does make sense, and it makes sense for the reason I explained in the post above yours. If God had destroyed the wicked too soon, what was happening would have been misunderstood. It would have appeared that God was killing the wicked arbitrarily as an act of power, rather than it being the result of His glory interacting with sin. Here's another statement from the Spirit of Prophesy explaining what happens when sin comes in contact with God: quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. (DA 107)
This also describes it:
quote:
It will be a dreadful death; for they will have to feel the agony that Christ felt upon the cross to purchase for them the redemption which they have refused. (1T 124)
Rose: The laws which constitute the foundation of any given government are not natural laws. The decalogue is the foundation of God's government, not a natural law. The transgression of the laws of your country brings an imposed punishment. You knew what the punishment was. Then, of course, when you go ahead, break these laws, and incur the punishment, you are just reaping what you sowed. But this doesn't change the fact that the punishment is imposed.
God’s wrath against sin kills sinners - the anguish, horror and suffering felt by the sinner are unbearable and inevitably lead to death. On the other hand, it is true that God's wrath can be restrained _ it has been restrained till now, and it could be restrained for ever. God has to choose to exercise His wrath in order that the sinner dies.
Tom: From the 1T quote above, it can be seen that the death the wicked die is the death that Christ died. Now what was God's part in Christ's death? Rom. 4:25 tells us that God "delivered up Christ for our offenses." It is not that God was killing Christ, but God gave Him up to suffer the consequences of sin.
quote:
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isa. 53:4-6
Note that we esteemed Him stricken, smitten of God *but* He was wounded for our transgressions. What was God's part in this? He "laid on Him the iniquity of us all." That was enough! We see the terrible consequences of sin in Christ's death.
It is true that God's wrath is executed upon the wicked, but what does that mean? In Scripture, we see that God's wrath is executed on the wicked when He gives them over to the consequences of their choices. The following are texts which bring this out: Deut 31:17, 18; Jer. 33:5; 2 Chron 29:6, 8; 2 Kings 17:17-20; Ps. 27:9; Ps. 89:46; Ps. 143:7; Hosea 9:12; Lam. 2:5-7; Rom. 1:18-26. I have quoted the texts earlier on this thread, so I won't requote them here to keep the length of this post down, but will point out that in the last reference (Rom. 1) it starts out saying that the wrath of God is revealed from heaven in giving up the wicked; 3 times it points out that God "gave them up." This "giving up" is the same Greek word used in Rom. 4:25 when it says that God "delivered" up Jesus. God will give up the wicked in the end, to suffer the consequences of their sin. This is God's wrath.
Please note in the DA 764 quote that EGW specifically points out the wicked are not destroyed by an abritary act of power. If the only reason the wicked are destroyed is because of something God does to them, then that is an arbitrary act of power, which goes exactly against the whole point EGW is making in the whole chapter.
Rose: The mere manifestation of God's glory can kill all humans in a moment (like in the second coming), but in the second death some will take a longer time to die, others a shorter time, according to their sentence (which will be decided during the millennium). The fact that there will be a difference in the duration of the punishment, definitely characterizes it as an imposed punishment, and not as a natural consequence.
Tom: Why should that be the case? Let's consider gravity as an example. The higher you jump from, the greater your penalty.
If sin causes suffering, then the more sin one has, the more pain. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us the "dreadful death" of the wicked will be that which Christ experienced. His agony was so great because all the sin of the world was laid on Him. The suffering of those who suffer for their own sins will be proportionate to the sin which they have.
Rose: Besides, I’m not sure the mere manifestation of God's physical glory kills fallen angels. Satan and his angels still remained some time in the presence of God's glory after their sin (before being cast out from heaven), and they won't die at the second coming. Satan will die only when God chooses to manifest His terrible wrath against sin, and Satan feels in his soul unbearable anguish, horror and mental suffering. It is this that will inevitably result in his death. And nothing of this seems just "natural" to me.
Tom: DA 764 points out exactly what will happen, and why. It points out that the glory of God destroys the wicked, and that had He allowed this to happen before Christ's death it would have been misunderstood.
You did not address the argument I made in the post previous to yours. Please note the questions I asked. Why would the destruction of the wicked have resulted in an evil seed of doubt had it occured to soon? Why does Christ's death make it so the wicked can be destroyed without risking that sin will arise again? These are very important questions to understand.
I would invite you to read carefully the post immediately above yours, and to consider the questions and explanations made there. I await your comments.
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12351
02/02/05 01:24 AM
02/02/05 01:24 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
|
|
Tom, the quote Rose provided is a good counterbalance and shows the other side of the coin to what you’re saying. God allowed sin to develop so all could see its results and could see His mercy and forbearance in allowing the demonstration to take place. But it is God who enforces His law not sin itself. Death is the penalty that God has imposed for sin. The penalty for sin is not death merely because of the nature of sin or by definition. The penalty is death primarily because God knew from the beginning that this is the only appropriate penalty for unrepentant spirits, whether men, angels or other beings. Secondarily, it is death because that is the way the Creator made things work. In both cases, the reasons are directly attributed to God – first as King and second as Creator. So I would say there is no scriptural reason to suggest that sin is lethal of itself. God made provision for the possibility of sin from the beginning. From the beginning death has been the Divine penalty for sin. He made the universe to work this way for our good.
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
