What I mean, in essence, is that "force is the last resort of every false religion".

The work of destruction is a "strange" work for God, but it is not strange in the sense that it is uncommon or rare, is it? It is strange, I believe, in the sense that His way of destroying people is so much higher than man's way, that it is not possible to equate God's way with man's way in this area.

We have the Scriptural account of King Saul's suicide on the one hand, and the statement that God slew him on the other. Of course both are true, but reconciling the two things is not necessarily easy.

This is my view on the subject.

Very nice insight! (the underlined part; regarding what "strange" means).

Thank you. As it relates to this topic what in particular do you like about it?

Amen! When circumstances force God to destroy sinners there is nothing forceful or violent about it by virtue of the fact it is God who did it. When God is forced to destroy sinners He is accomplishing several things, one of which is to inspire and motivate others to love and obey Him. He certainly does not mean to coerce, force, or scare them into loving and obeying Him.

What about God Himself destroying sinners? Who or what do you think destroyed the sinners I named above?

I am reposting the following post:


Thank you for answering my first question. I hear you saying, yes, Jesus died of heart failure due to a broken heart. “Takotsubo cardiomyopathy, also known as transient apical ballooning syndrome, apical ballooning cardiomyopathy, stress-induced cardiomyopathy, broken-heart-syndrome, and simply stress cardiomyopathy, is a type of non-ischemic cardiomyopathy in which there is a sudden temporary weakening of the myocardium (the muscle of the heart). Because this weakening can be triggered by emotional stress, such as the death of a loved one, the condition is also known as broken heart syndrome.”

And the reason Jesus did not die in Gethsemane of takotsubo cardiomyopathy is due to the fact an angel worked to prevent it. However, the second question remains unanswered, namely, since you believe Jesus demonstrated how and why the wicked will die do you also believe angels will work during the final judgment to prevent the wicked from dying prematurely of broken heart syndrome? If so, why will they work to prevent them from dying prematurely? To what purpose will it serve? And, what will they experience that will cause them to die of broken heart syndrome? What will break their heart?


It would help me greatly if you were to summarize your view in the simplest of terms. I didn’t find Ty’s words helpful. I’m trying to figure out why you believe Jesus’ character did not consume the sinners with whom He came into contact. Did His humanity veil His character? If so, how did it veil it? If not, what prevented His character from consuming sinners to death? Do you believe His character will play a part in why sinners suffer and die during the final judgment? If so, how and why will it cause them to suffer and to die?


Ellen wrote that Satan will heal the wicked. “He makes the weak strong and inspires all with his own spirit and energy. He proposes to lead them against the camp of the saints and to take possession of the City of God.” {GC 663.1} Do you think he will be unable to “make” them see? Also, how do you think God will spiritually reveal Himself to the wicked? How do you think they will perceive what He is revealing to them? If, as you say, God reveals Himself to us now, why doesn’t it cause us to suffer and to die like it will the wicked during the final judgment? What makes the difference?


I’m happy to learn you believe each person will experience judgment in an individualized manner, that they will experience the full result of each sin as they revisit them one at a time. Whether or not your version of it or Ellen’s description of it is correct is yet to be seen. Nevertheless, it’s nice to know you believe it will happen on an individual basis. However, there’s one thing I still don’t understand, namely, do you believe they will have this experience naturally after Jesus resurrects them? Or, do you believe Jesus will have to do something so that they can experience revisiting their sins and suffer and die accordingly?


I did read it and it wasn’t helpful. It would be helpful if you would simply explain what you believe in the simplest of terms. Your detailed explanation above did not mention anything about the role God’s character will play in their suffering and death. Nor did you say what they will die of (broken heart syndrome like Jesus or something else).


Above you said revisiting their sins in judgment will cause them to suffer (although you came short of saying it will cause them to die). You also failed to say if Jesus will have to do anything, other than resurrect them, for them to suffer and die. Finally, you haven’t explained what role God’s character will play, if any, as to how and why they will suffer and die. It would be very helpful if you would explain these things.


“The actual destruction to befall them will be accomplished by the unleashing of the wild passions within them and by the unrestrained forces of nature.” Do you believe it is the revelation of the glory of God’s character during the final judgment that will cause the “forces in man and nature” to cause the wicked to suffer and to die according to their sinfulness? And, do you believe this would happen naturally even if Jesus did not reveal the character of God during the final judgment? Also, what forces in man and nature will cause them to suffer and to die? Please name the forces you believe will be responsible for causing them to suffer and to die. By the way, who wrote what you quoted above?

There's not just one way that sin is destructive. God works to prevent *all* the destructive ways that sin could kill a person. For example, sin results in guilt, and guilt causes stress. The weakest part of the body gives way, and the person develops a disease. This needn't be the same part of the body for each person.

In DA 764, EGW explains that had God left Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin, they would perish. As I've explained on multiple occasions, if God did not do this, then people would die, and if God left people to reap the full result of their sin prematurely, then they couldn't take part in the judgment, since they would be dead.

This makes no sense. For example, if an arrow is shot from a bow and pierces a vital organ, killing someone, that's a forceful and violent death. It makes no difference whether a man, or an angle, or God, pulled the bow.

Yes.



By speaking to their mind through His Spirit.



The Ty Gibson quote addressed what makes the difference, which is basically involves receiving light bit by bit in healing doses rather than all at once. Regarding what the lost will perceive, there's an SOP quote that addresses this which speaks to the fact that they'll be able to understand things to some extent. I'll see if I can find the quote.



If the Ty explanation isn't clear to you, I'm sure I can't improve on that.



This is sufficiency (but not necessity).

[quot]e(although you came short of saying it will cause them to die). You also failed to say if Jesus will have to do anything, other than resurrect them, for them to suffer and die.[/quote]

You're asking a necessity question here. The answer is no, in regards to necessity. It's not necessary for Jesus to do something special to cause those who sin to suffer.



Yes I have. Many times.



It wasn't before, evidently, as apparently you can't remember that I said anything.



This is actually dealing with Christ's second coming. I think similar principles are at play, but the suffering before Christ's coming is not proportional. I think the proportional suffering referred to in the final judgment is directly related to their sin. That is, as the truth is revealed to each one, that causes suffering. The more sin, the more light that had been rejected, the more suffering.



I'm not sure what "this" is. The wicked would suffer, because sin leads to suffering, but it would not be the same suffering that comes as a result of the truth being revealed.



Now we're going back to the Second Coming. All sorts of forces common to nature and man.

Tom, you didn't answer my questions. You have repeatedly told us we must study the suffering and death of Jesus on the cross in order to understand how and why the wicked will suffer and die during the final judgment. Did you mean to say the wicked will, like Jesus, die of heart failure due to broken heart syndrome, and that angels must work to prevent them from dying prematurely so that they can live long enough to suffer according to their sinfulness?

You are in direct disagreement with the SOP on this point. Here's what she wrote about it:


"Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?" In answer to her question I submit you, Tom. She very plainly said, "God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man", and yet you plainly contradict her. You seem to think God cannot do things that would be sinful for us to do. Whereas she clearly believed He can and has and does.