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Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #123674
02/27/10 03:53 AM
02/27/10 03:53 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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I'm hoping you will answer the questions above. To answer your question, I believe he would have been relieved to discover Jesus imputed the repentance he would have experienced had he not died first.

Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #123701
02/28/10 02:04 AM
02/28/10 02:04 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
I'm hoping you will answer the questions above. To answer your question, I believe he would have been relieved to discover Jesus imputed the repentance he would have experienced had he not died first.


This isn't that I was getting at.

Quote:

Tom, do you think since Moses knew he was guilty of a grievous, character impacting sin that if he had died before repenting of it that God would simply ignore it in judgment, treat it as if it never happened or as if it had been repented of? Does it matter if such people commit such sins under such circumstances that they didn't repent of it before they died?

MM, what do you think Moses' first thoughts would have been upon being resurrected? (in the scenario that he died while sinning, before he could repent)


Here's what I was getting at. Moses' thoughts would be running along the same lines when he work up from his sleep (i.e., was resurrected), so he'd be thinking something like, "Where am I? What happened? Oh, I died. I've been resurrected! Oh no! My last action before dying was I was angry and struck the rock! I shouldn't have done that! I'm so sorry!"

Something like that, right? So given this is accurate, what need would there be for God to impute anything?

I think this idea that's there a need to impute something is just confusing things. It makes the simple complicated.

The simple thing is that Moses would be happy in heaven. That's all that's necessary. Consider the following:

Quote:
God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes...

He (God) would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy....

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 541-543)


I've quoted this many times, although this is the first time in this situation, discussing the righteous. This text explains why the lost won't be in heaven. It's because of their characters. They have characters which are not in harmony with God or the principles of His government.

They love self and put self first. It's not possible for a person who has this mindset to spend eternity with God and those who love God. God explains this to the lost, goes through their live history, explains how He tried to reach them, explains what Christ did, so the lost can understand why they can't be in heaven, and what happened in the Great Controversy. The wicked agree with God, rendering their judgment that He has been fair and kind with them, always working in their best interests.

Moses, on the other hand, is not of the "me first" mindset. He learned to live for others, and primarily for Christ. He learned to love God and His principles. He had the part in bold. Therefore he'll be in heaven.

Now isn't this a simple and attractive way of looking at things?

The fact that Moses (hypothetically) lost his patience and died before being able to repent is totally irrelevant. There's need for God to impute anything.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #123710
02/28/10 03:18 PM
02/28/10 03:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, I think one of the reasons why God will impute repentance in such cases is because whether or not such people will be a part of the first resurrection is determined during the investigative judgment, which happens while they are asleep in the grave. The difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying is pretty minimal. You believe repentance is unnecessary in such cases because had they not died they would have repented, whereas, I'm saying God imputes repentance because had they not died they would have repented. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. The Lord declared to Moses: "Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book." Exodus 32:33. And says the prophet Ezekiel: "When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, . . . all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned." Ezekiel 18:24. {GC 483.1}

This is logical and simple. There is nothing confusing or complicated about it. The idea that God need not impute repentance in such cases, that it doesn't matter if such sins are unrepented of and unforgiven, flies in the face of what Ellen wrote above. I take it you believe God will impute forgiveness without repentance, whereas, I believe God will impute both.

Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #123714
02/28/10 05:29 PM
02/28/10 05:29 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Here's something from Waggoner which deals with the issue of sin and the books of heaven:

Quote:
Though all the record of all our sin, even though written with the finger of God, were erased, the sin would remain, because the sin is in us. Though the record of our sin were graven in the rock, and the rock should be ground to powder—even this would not blot out our sin.

The blotting out of sin is the erasing of it from nature, the being of man.

The erasing of sin is the blotting of it from our natures, so that we shall know it no more. "The worshippers once purged"[Hebrews 10:2, 3]—actually purged by the blood of Christ—have "no more conscience of sins," because the way of sin is gone from them. Their iniquity may be sought for, but it will not be found. It is forever gone from them—it is foreign to their new natures, and even though they may be able to recall the fact that they have committed certain sins, they have forgotten the sin itself—they do not think of doing it any more. This is the work of Christ in the true sanctuary (The Review and Herald, September 30, 1902).


The books in heaven simply reference the character. The character is the reality. The books in heaven add nothing new and take nothing away. They are simply a record.

The record is not the important thing, but the reality which is being recorded. This is the point Waggoner is making. You could add entries, delete them, change them, and it wouldn't make any difference. It's only because the record faithfully represents the truth that it has any value, but changing the record doesn't affect anything.

MM, does this make sense to you?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #123724
02/28/10 07:22 PM
02/28/10 07:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Yes, it makes sense to me. However, what doesn't make sense is your belief the books in heaven merely reflect what happened in reality, which means they wouldn't reflect repentance in such cases. According to my theory, the books would reflect repentance.

Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #123725
02/28/10 07:29 PM
02/28/10 07:29 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The books reflect the character. Character is dependent upon what happened.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #123745
03/01/10 04:37 PM
03/01/10 04:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Character is the result of repetitious thoughts, words, and actions. Are you suggesting the books do not contain all of our thoughts, words, and actions? Or, are you suggesting it doesn't matter if a particular sin does not have "pardoned" written next to it?

Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #123748
03/01/10 05:41 PM
03/01/10 05:41 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I'm saying if a particular sin has "pardon" written against it, it's because that sin is not a part of the character, just as Waggoner explained. The important thing is the character, not the record of the character.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: I have some questions [Re: Tom] #123759
03/02/10 02:56 AM
03/02/10 02:56 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Was Moses' sin not a part of his character? If not, does that mean you believe it wasn't recorded in the book and that, therefore, it wasn't necessary for Jesus to write "pardon" next to it?

Re: I have some questions [Re: Mountain Man] #123761
03/02/10 04:43 AM
03/02/10 04:43 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Ellen White says the character is not formed by the occasional good deed or misdeed, but by the trend of the life. What do you think the trend of Moses' life was?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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