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Arianism vs the Trinity #123579
02/24/10 01:32 AM
02/24/10 01:32 AM
JCS  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
I started this thread to provide an opportunity to discuss view points that were brought up in "The Sunday Law is near!" thread.

Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: JCS] #123593
02/24/10 03:18 PM
02/24/10 03:18 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Perhaps you could define what Arianism is. I've heard of "Arian nation" used in a way that makes me think of neonazis. But then, there's "trinitarian" which could mean 3 of "arians" so singular could mean one of the Trinity?

Reference to the Trinity should include an explanation of John 14.

Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: kland] #123596
02/24/10 03:30 PM
02/24/10 03:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Quote:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is about various theological concepts associated with Arius. For other uses, see Arian. (Not to be confused with "Aryanism" which formed the core of Nazi racial ideology.)

Arianism is the theological teaching of Arius (ca. AD 250–336), a Christian presbyter from Alexandria, Egypt, concerning the relationship of the entities of the Trinity ('God the Father', 'God the Son' and 'God the Holy Spirit') and the precise nature of the Son of God. Deemed a heretic by the First Council of Nicaea of 325, Arius was later exonerated in 335 at the First Synod of Tyre[1], and then pronounced a heretic again after his death at the First Council of Constantinople of 381.[2] The Roman Emperors Constantius II (337-361) and Valens (364-378) were Arians or Semi-Arians.

Arianism is defined as those teachings attributed to Arius which are in opposition to mainstream Trinitarian Christological dogma, as determined by the first two Ecumenical Councils and currently maintained by the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Churches and most Protestant Churches. "Arianism" is also often used to refer to other nontrinitarian theological systems of the 4th century, which regarded Jesus Christ—the Son of God, the Logos—as either a created being (as in Arianism proper and Anomoeanism), or as neither uncreated nor created in the sense other beings are created (as in Semi-Arianism).

It appears Arianism and Aryanism are two different belief systems.

Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: Mountain Man] #123597
02/24/10 03:33 PM
02/24/10 03:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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I believe the Father, Son, and Spirit are one God. Jesus is as eternal as the Father. And the Spirit is as much a person as the Father. They have existed from eternity.

Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: Mountain Man] #123599
02/24/10 04:01 PM
02/24/10 04:01 PM
JCS  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
The topic of Arianism was in direct referance to David Clayton's video "The Omega of Deadly Heresies" hosted by Restoration Ministries. The link was provided by gordonb1 in the thread "The National Sunday law is near!" In the video, the speaker repetitively refered to a majority of the Adventist founders as Arianists. I looked up Christology in the Seventh-day Adventist Encyclopedia #10 and found out that people like James White and Joseph Bates had once been members of the "Christian Connection" of which at the time held to a form of the Arian belief concerning Christ's nature. There are many subtle points of belief and disagreement relative to the true nature of God when studying anti-Trinitarian beliefs. It was my hope that Elle could expand on what her conflicts in belief with the Trinity were and how Ellen White's works align with those beliefs. I have no bias for or against our church's present day beliefs, my bias is solely to find the truth.

Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: JCS] #123606
02/24/10 09:29 PM
02/24/10 09:29 PM
E
Elle  Offline
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Originally Posted By: JCS
The topic of Arianism was in direct referance to David Clayton's video "The Omega of Deadly Heresies" hosted by Restoration Ministries. The link was provided by gordonb1 in the thread "The National Sunday law is near!" In the video, the speaker repetitively refered to a majority of the Adventist founders as Arianists. I looked up Christology in the Seventh-day Adventist Encyclopedia #10 and found out that people like James White and Joseph Bates had once been members of the "Christian Connection" of which at the time held to a form of the Arian belief concerning Christ's nature. There are many subtle points of belief and disagreement relative to the true nature of God when studying anti-Trinitarian beliefs. It was my hope that Elle could expand on what her conflicts in belief with the Trinity were and how Ellen White's works align with those beliefs. I have no bias for or against our church's present day beliefs, my bias is solely to find the truth.

Sorry JCS, I should of been more clear in my statement and definetly see that my statement led you on thinking that I studied EGW's writings versus the Trinity. Before I explain myself, let me bring my quote here so everyone can see how poorly I express myself at times blush

Originally Posted By: Elle
Well, I come to believe that any writings, with a little time, can become cleverly twisted and interepretated to anything man wants to embrace. So I don't share the same perspective with you JCS in saying that it is so clear that EGW upheld the trinity. I don't want to bring a trinity debate here, but just want to understand what we will be facing in the end time's great deception.

Well, my statement was based on my experience on this forum this pass year as I learned how many people can take EGW statements or even the Bible or any other writings and have twisted it and interpret it to uphold any views. I have learn also that the Church has done that very cleverly in interpreting how we should read difficult EGW writings in the way they want to portray it. For example, if you read the topic “Is EGW a futurist” you will see that Ellen has written that Daniel 12 and the trumpets are future. However, this view is denied by our Church because it puts in jeopardy the validity of the history of our Church. I could go on and on, on this versus the prophecies, but not on the trinity.

It’s not only the SDA Church, but all denominations has done this in their own ways to refute any truth so they can embrace anything their heart desires. It only takes eloquent words and sound logics and a hierarchical design system in power to quickly and effectively teach the mass skillfully any diversion in doctrines and within a few generations, you can have a brand new doctrine different from the original.

Even societies have done it by re-writing history, promoting new idealism, phylosophies etc.. so to better control the people and to establish a society of master-slaves.

This type of wicked manipulations are to promote “robotics” and stamp on our God given-freedom to use our own minds. All societies and denominations are doing it to transform people into “a bunch of dummies” by making them dependant of MAN’s TEACHINGS(or doctrines) via brain washing tactives and propaganda. To top it all, we don't need to go very far to understand this, as we only need to look at our own heart.

Regarding Arianist/EGW,I have seen many "Anti-trinitarian" websites which wrote endless pages of the pioneers and EGW writings believing the Arianist view. I'm sure there must be some validity to them, but I haven't studied them at all. Plus I did get some literature and sets of studies here, but all of these put fear in my heart as I didn't want to be brain-washed again and to be taught by man Again. When I was reading them initially, all I could see that these writings could be viewed in either way. Which one should I pick?

It’s only have been 7 months that I have started to become convicted of the “Arianist” doctrine(is that a proper way you say it?). It wasn’t via the writings of EGW that I was convicted either. I have resolved a year ago, that I was going to establish all my belief on the Bible alone. I have been engaged to re-evaluate all doctrines that I have been spoonfed and want to chuck in the garbage anything that is not from God.

The way I was convicted about the Godhead Truth, it was passive study via studying the Gospel message. I decided to not actively engage myself in viewing texts or studies that are design to promote Arianist belief. I prayed and acknowledge my wretched brain-washed state of mind and my unability to discern truths and ask to have the promise of the Spirit(Jesus in me) to teach me the Truth and claiming 1Jn2:27. Since I was in the Epistles and the 4 gospels all the time with my Gospel study, the Lord was impressing me with a little text here, and a little text there. I always take notes in a study of any texts that impresses me and organized them in Excell worksheets by subjects. Gradually within 2-3 months of that, then it started to happen that I viewed scripture with a new mind and understanding. Passages started to have a new ring to it. I started to see that there were only One God, the Father and One mediator, the man Christ-Jesus.

Sorry again for the badly stated sentence and for this to be lenghty. I'm sure someone else can answer you.....Keep on searching for the truth and ONLY the TRUTH.


Blessings
Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: Elle] #123614
02/24/10 11:21 PM
02/24/10 11:21 PM
JCS  Offline OP
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
Colorado, USA
I definitely need to study this topic further. My pastor advised me to read the book "The Trinity" but the fact is I already have. I have a very unique and independent perspective on the nature of God. My thought was that since God is the Alpha and the Omega (the begining and the end), that God essentially exists independently of space and time. This being the case, the true nature of God lies beyond human understanding. (like a one dimensional creature, that moves along the path of a string, trying to visualize and comprehend a three dimensional object moving through space and effected by gravity) My belief is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are merely different facets of one God. They seem like separate beings based on our limited views on time and space but are really just alternate higher dimensional perspectives of the one true God. I could attempt to illustrate my complex, hyperdimensional view of the Godhead but doubt that my ideas would successively convey themselves clearly enough to understand. Regardless, my idea isn't fully proven via scripture or Ellen White and thus shouldn't be considered to be anything more than a fanciful conjecture.

Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: JCS] #123621
02/25/10 05:10 AM
02/25/10 05:10 AM
asygo  Offline
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That's a very interesting concept of one hyper-dimensional God manifested through 3 different facets. It might even explain some semi-arian statements that imply a beginning for the Son - He has always existed, but was "begotten" when He became manifest in our dimension. Interesting.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: asygo] #123622
02/25/10 06:48 AM
02/25/10 06:48 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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If I understand Arianism, it is a belief that Christ was not God in the same way as the Father. Basically, Arianism makes Christ and the Holy Spirit an extension of "God," a proxy for God, if you will, as if God would simply make a manifestation of Himself through other personages. Have I understood correctly?

I have a friend who basically believes that, whatever it might be called. I have attempted to show from the Bible where this concept is incorrect, but my friend is quite settled in mind about these beliefs, and does not accept the texts at face value, but rather reinterprets them based on less-complete passages.

For example, if one passage mentions only God and Jesus, and leaves out the Holy Spirit, then it is assumed that the passage has excluded the Holy Spirit with reason, and not merely narrowed the focus. Here is an example:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
“After the earth was created, and the beasts upon it, the Father and Son carried out their purpose, which was designed before the fall of Satan, to make man in their own image. They had wrought together in the creation of the earth and every living thing upon it. And now God says to his Son, "Let us make man in our image."” {1SP 24, 25}


Here is their logic:

Quote:
Question 1 (Genesis 1:2):
The Holy Spirit was present at creation; therefore He must be an individual person like the Father and the Son. “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” Genesis 1:2.

What do you say about that?

Answer:
Creation has been attributed to the Holy Spirit as much as to the Father and the Son due to the above text. But what the readers sometimes fail to acknowledge is the possessive terminology used in the above verse. In this verse the possessive is used: “The Spirit of God”. It does not say “God the Spirit”.

Psalms 33:6 “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath
of his mouth.”

The Hebrew word for “breath” is ‫( רּוח‬rûach) which is the same word translated „spirit‟ in Genesis 1:2. The meaning should be clear: the spirit of God is the breath of God. This is confirmed further by Jesus in John 20:22 “And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost.” Jesus breathed His own Spirit, not someone else. It is this same spirit that is mentioned in Genesis 1:2, “the Spirit of God”, which can also be translated “breath of God”.

“The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.” Job 33:4

The Spirit of God is equated with His breath. That is what the word means.


In my response to this wind of doctrine, I carefully addressed many of the passages in the Bible which clearly speak of the Spirit as more than just "breath." There are certainly two (or more) usages of the word "spirit" in the Bible, and I agree that in some contexts it does refer to breath. But that this cannot be the case when referring to the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost is clear.

Because it is long, I will put my material in a quote box. It is worth reading, however, if you have questions on the nature of the Godhead.
Quote:
THE SPIRIT SPEAKS:

The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. (2 Samuel 23:2, KJV)

And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the LORD; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them. (Ezekiel 11:5, KJV)

While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. (Acts 10:19, KJV)

Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. (Acts 8:29, KJV)

As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. (Acts 13:2, KJV)

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1 Timothy 4:1, KJV)


THE SPIRIT MOVES:

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Genesis 1:2, KJV)


THE SPIRIT COMES:

And when he came unto Lehi, the Philistines shouted against him: and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and the cords that were upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands. (Judges 15:14, KJV)

And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly. (1 Samuel 11:6, KJV)


THE SPIRIT ENTERS:

And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me. (Ezekiel 2:2, KJV)

Then the spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet, and spake with me, and said unto me, Go, shut thyself within thine house. (Ezekiel 3:24, KJV)


THE SPIRIT DEPARTS:

But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. (1 Samuel 16:14, KJV)


THE SPIRIT DESCENDS:

And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: (Mark 1:10, KJV)


THE SPIRIT LIFTS/TAKES UP:

Then the spirit took me up, and I heard behind me a voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of the LORD from his place. (Ezekiel 3:12, KJV)

So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD was strong upon me. (Ezekiel 3:14, KJV)

And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. (Ezekiel 8:3, KJV)

So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. (Isaiah 59:19, KJV)

And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. (Acts 8:39, KJV)


THE SPIRIT LEADS:

Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. (Matthew 4:1, KJV)


THE SPIRIT BLOWS:

The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. (Isaiah 40:7, KJV)


THE SPIRIT CAN PRESENT A BODILY FORM (VISIBLE):

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: (Matthew 3:16, KJV)

And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. (Luke 3:22, KJV)


THE SPIRIT IS MANIFESTED:

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (1 Corinthians 12:7, KJV)


THE SPIRIT FATHERED JESUS:

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 1:18, KJV)

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 1:20, KJV)


THE SPIRIT REVEALS:

And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. (Luke 2:26, KJV)


THE SPIRIT INTERCEDES*:

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (Romans 8:26, KJV)


THE SPIRIT SEARCHES:

And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:27, KJV)


THE SPIRIT FORBIDS:

Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, (Acts 16:6, KJV)

After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. (Acts 16:7, KJV)


THE SPIRIT WITNESSES:

Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. (Acts 20:23, KJV)

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. (1 John 5:6, KJV)


THE SPIRIT HAS INTELLIGENT THOUGHT:

Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him? (Isaiah 40:13, KJV)

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; (Acts 15:28, KJV)


THE SPIRIT CAN BE VEXED:

But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. (Isaiah 63:10, KJV)


THE SPIRIT CAN BE GIVEN:

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? (Luke 11:13, KJV)


THE SPIRIT CAN BE TAKEN AWAY:

Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. (Psalms 51:11, KJV)


DEVILS CAST OUT BY THE SPIRIT:

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. (Matthew 12:28, KJV)


THE SPIRIT ONE OF THREE PERSONS (REFERENCES WITH ALL THREE):

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. (2 Corinthians 13:14, KJV)

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: (Ephesians 1:17, KJV)

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me; because the LORD hath anointed Me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent Me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; (Isaiah 61:1, KJV) [CAPITALIZATION OF "me" ADDED FOR CLARITY.]

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7, KJV)

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Matthew 28:19, KJV)

For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. (Mark 12:36, KJV)


BELIEF IN SPIRIT SEPARATE FROM BELIEF IN GOD:

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (Acts 19:2, KJV)


* NOTE: When the Spirit "intercedes" for us, why does the Spirit need to make intercession? 1) If the Spirit were God Himself, this would be silly for God to intercede to Himself--both redundant, and unnecessary. Remember that Jesus taught the disciples to pray to the Father in Jesus' name. The Spirit is then said to "translate" (intercede with "groanings" which were not expressed in words) those prayers to the Father. 2) If the Spirit were Jesus Himself, how is it that Jesus could father Himself--thus becoming both Father and Son? Therefore, there remains only the possibility that the Spirit is a separate, third Person, and that the Godhead consists of three persons. Considering the Bible has no fewer than six verses which mention all three persons of the Godhead within the verse, this is a very supportable option from Scripture.

------------------------------------------

ELLEN WHITE'S COMMENTS:

In describing to His disciples the office work of the Holy Spirit, Jesus sought to inspire them with the joy and hope that inspired His own heart. He rejoiced because of the abundant help He had provided for His church. The Holy Spirit was the highest of all gifts that He could solicit from His Father for the exaltation of His people. The Spirit was to be given as a regenerating agent, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail. The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power. It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer. It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given His Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress His own character upon His church. {DA 671.2}

The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897)

In describing to his disciples the office work of the Holy Spirit, Jesus sought to inspire them with the joy and hope that inspired his own heart. He rejoiced because of the abundant help he had provided for his church. The Holy Spirit was the highest of all gifts that he could solicit from his Father for the exaltation of his people. The Spirit was to be given as a regenerating agent, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail. The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the third person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fulness of divine power. It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer. It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given his Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress his own character on his church. {RH, November 19, 1908 par. 5}
Of the Spirit, Jesus said, "He shall glorify me." The Saviour came to glorify the Father by the demonstration of his love; so the Spirit was to glorify Christ by revealing his grace to the world. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of his people. {RH, November 19, 1908 par. 6}

Evil had been accumulating for centuries, and could only be restrained and resisted by the mighty power of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fulness of divine power. Another spirit must be met; for the essence of evil was working in all ways, and the submission of man to this satanic captivity was amazing. {SpTA10 25.2}

The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit. {SpTA10 37.1}



Personality of the Holy Spirit.--We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.--Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.) {Ev 616.5}
The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God. . . . {Ev 616.6}
The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."--Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}
The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.--Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37. (1897) {Ev 617.2}
In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers.-- We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, --and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 51. (1905) {Ev 617.3}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Arianism vs the Trinity [Re: JCS] #123623
02/25/10 10:48 AM
02/25/10 10:48 AM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: JCS
I definitely need to study this topic further. My pastor advised me to read the book "The Trinity" but the fact is I already have. I have a very unique and independent perspective on the nature of God. My thought was that since God is the Alpha and the Omega (the begining and the end), that God essentially exists independently of space and time. This being the case, the true nature of God lies beyond human understanding. (like a one dimensional creature, that moves along the path of a string, trying to visualize and comprehend a three dimensional object moving through space and effected by gravity) My belief is that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are merely different facets of one God. They seem like separate beings based on our limited views on time and space but are really just alternate higher dimensional perspectives of the one true God. I could attempt to illustrate my complex, hyperdimensional view of the Godhead but doubt that my ideas would successively convey themselves clearly enough to understand. Regardless, my idea isn't fully proven via scripture or Ellen White and thus shouldn't be considered to be anything more than a fanciful conjecture.

I do encourage you to pursue to study this further for I believe that the correct understanding of the Godhead is the foundation of all Truths. It will open up scriptures and shed light in all understandings of nature.

I had my own “fanciful conjecture” with the understanding of 3 quarkz forming all protons and neutrons. To me I was sure it was the signature of the Trinity that God had put into all matter. I knew this because of my studies of health science and interest in understanding how the body works. I was blessed with some “understandings” and some “knowledges” through my studies. However, these are only scratching the surface of God’s wonders and Truths. I value greatly studying nature for it is the second Bible and both shed light on each other. However, what we see in nature today is all under the effect of sins. Our knowledge is limited for God is hidden behind "a cloud" or is in "thick darkness".

To know Truths(God's Character and Ways), from my experience, I came to acknowledge that what I know is equivalent to a grade 1, plus it is tinted with errors, plus I know my heart is evil and very incline to self-deception; so I come to God depending on Him to reveal Himself to me and opening my heart to receive His Truth or else I’m totally lost.

When I did receive the first conviction that there was only the Father and The Son in the Godhead, then scriptures became more clear and alive to me.

Let me give you an example: from Prv 8 where it’s talking about Wisdom. In parenthese is my own application to the body, however I believe this concept is applicable to all dimension of animated or inaminated objects, from the tiniest sub-atomic particles levels to the big galaxies for by Christ "all things consist"(Col 1:17):

v. 2 She(He) standeth in the top of high places (brain)
v. 2b by the way in the places of the paths (neuro-connection paths)
v. 3 She(He) crieth at the gates (cells)
v. 4 at the coming in at the door (genes)
v. 5 Unto you O man, I call and my voice is to the sons of man (Man)
v. 8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness (Jesus)

Jesus voice is heard by all living creature’s cells and genes, not because they have brains nor ears, but because they know and can respond to their Creator’s vibrations/signals. Nothing in nature is automated. All chemical reactions, all gene activations, all cellular processes, all inter-relations between tissues, organs, and systems are under God’s constant care and direct intervention. This all happen without our doing so and we are totally unconscious of any of these activities. For simplicity, we'll skip what happens at the conscious(brain) level.

To me Jhn 15, gives more insight of the relationship between the living creatures and the Godhead. We have the Father being the Husbandman; he is the provider, the carer, the one that has knowledge of the creature’s needs, and the foreknowledge of the seasons. Then we have Jesus, the True Vine, in having all creation attached to him. Jesus is the voice to every creatures, teaching them the Father’s care and ways, delivering the Father’s resources, walking beside them and being with them through all processes which comes to bear much fruits.

I see Jhn 15 as the description of the process of Life that existed at the beginning of Creation and will always be for eternity. It is only through Jesus, the Only Mediator, which flows all Life(Husbandman’s provision, care, knowledge). Jesus reveals us, by teaching us, His Father’s ways and will. Jesus’ presence is continual by being our life partner, walking beside us and with us; guiding all creatures into all righteousness. This is Life Eternal.

In this description, I do not see mention of a third person, nor can I see how it can fit in this context.


Blessings
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