Sorry MM. I wasn't ignoring you. I was hoping that Gordon would reply since I'm kinda new in understanding this.

Well, as far as I can see from Prv 8:22 that Jesus was brought forth before anything was created.

It doesn't say exactly how long Jesus existed before any creation was made, but it does say a very long long time with the word everlasting(H5769)in v.23.

Besides that I don't think the Bible specifies, and I'm not going to speculate. (H5769) does come from the root word H5956 which means concealed, i.e. the vanishing point, (generally)time out of mind.

Elle,

Did you read my last post here about the simultaneous interaction of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit with One Another?

Elle, I agree speculating about this would have dire consequences. However, must we speculate to believe the Father is eternal, that there has never been a time when He didn't exist? If not, if it's true, and if there was a time when the Son didn't exist, it is also true, then, that there was an eternity before the Son existed that the Father existed by Himself all alone in a vast and void Universe.

I honestly don't know how someone can see just two beings involved here. To me it's clear Ellen White is speaking of three beings:

The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race and the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit gave themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption (Counsels on Health P 222). (7BC 442) [How can a presence give itself? If the Father gave Himself, this would already include His presence. The same is true about the Son. So how can it be mentioned that the Holy Spirit gave Himself?]

You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life--to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. ... When I feel oppressed, and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say; You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character. {7MR 267.2} [If there are just two beings, how can their person be classified as a third being? How could this possibly make any sense? Besides, did Ellen White pray to the Father, to Christ, and to their presence? Does this make any sense?]

When you gave yourself to Christ, you made a pledge in the presence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--the three great personal Dignitaries of heaven. "Hold fast" to this pledge. {7BC 959.8} [If the presence of the Father and of the Son already is the Holy Spirit, how can the presence of three be mentioned? Just one presence should be mentioned]

Those who claim to be Christ's followers pledge themselves to obedience at the time of their baptism. When they go down into the water, they pledge themselves in the presence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost that they will henceforth be dead unto the world and its temptations, and that they will arise from the watery grave to walk in newness of life, even a life of obedience to God's requirements. Ms 80, 1903, p. 2. ("Whoso Offereth Praise Glorifieth God," August 1, 1903.) [same as above]


The three great and glorious heavenly characters are present on the occasion of baptism. --Ms 45, 1904, pp. 9, 10. ("That They All May Be One," May 14, 1904.) [If only two are present, how can it be said that three are present?]

The text says:

"However when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth; for He shall not speak from Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak; and He will show you things to come. He shall glorify Me..."

If the "Spirit of Truth" is the presence of the Father, this means that the Father does not speak from Himself. If the "Spirit of Truth" is the presence of the Son, this means that Christ would glorify Himself. Should we understand that Christ would glorify Himself?

Hi Daryl

Can I confess something to you and everyone? Well, I was spending some time at another forum; and I can tell you, this forum has a real kind spirit with better honest discussion that we can really study and learn something. I want to thank you Daryl, for all your effort and time to give us this priviledge to talk here.

Ok back to the topic. Well I wasn't ignoring you either, but I was hoping someone else could answer this one too.

Anyway, I did go and read all the occurances of Jesus Baptism. I don't see any problem having the Holy Spirit coming down "like" the shape of a dove. I'm sure you realize it was not a real dove. It was like a form like a dove and it "abided" G3306 on Jesus.



Since the Father and Jesus both have a spirit and their Spirit have an omnipresence, then I have no difficulty to see that this was the Father's omnipresence descending as a form like a dove and remained(abided) on Jesus. We all know that Jesus was filled with the Father's Spirit.



When I was studying the prophecies, my attention was caught on Rev 10:7 for awile : it reads the following

I wondered what was that Mystery of God that would be finish at the beginning of the sound of the 7th Trumpet(after the 1260 days). So I found the following quotes :

Elle,

Thank you for the good report regarding this forum in relation to other forums.

We are working really hard to keep it this way.



How is it that all three of them were interacting with each other at the same time:

1 - Christ coming up out of the water after being baptized.
2 - The Holy Spirit descending in the bodily form of a dove.
3 - The Father speaking out of the cloud.

In other words, all three Persons of the Godhead were there, all at the same time.

I do not see the Father nor the Son manifesting the descending of the Holy Spirit in the bodily form of a dove in those verses.

The way I understand this text is that the Father testifies(glorify) His Son and in other instance we have Jesus that testifies(glorify) of His Father.

If you read two verse down from v. 13, It says that the Father takes from Jesus and shall show it to us.
Also, if you read
According to Ep 4:4 there's only 1 Spirit that both the Father and Christ shares (see Jn 14:23 & Rm 8:9)

I will expand more in detail in another post.

Or it could be referring to the one and only 3rd Person of the Godhead, namely the Holy Spirit.

What I understand from this verse and others similar to it is that, since both God sends the Spirit (John 14:26) and Christ sends the Spirit (John 15:26, 16:7), the Spirit is called both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. Both send Him, it's not that God sends Christ and Christ sends God, which, to me, does not make any sense.


And how do you apply this to John 16? If God and Christ don't send themselves, then God sends Christ and Christ sends God. Is this how you understand it? It can also be concluded from your explanation that God does not speak from Himself, but speaks what He hears from Christ, and Christ does not speak from Himself, but speaks what He hears from God. Is this correct?