Elle,

Mrs. White tells us much about the Holy Spirit, including the following counsel: "We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds."

Breath doesn't "walk" and is not a person. Neither is God to be reduced to mere breath. Whatever the Spirit is, that is the same substance, according to Mrs. White, that God is. So if we try to say the Spirit is not a Person, then we also declare that God the Father is not a Person.

Furthermore, why, oh why would the Holy Spirit need to translate our prayers to God the Father (see Romans 8:26, KJV) if in reality they were the same person? It would be senseless for the Father to translate to Himself, wouldn't it?

This doctrine of the Holy Spirit not existing as His own Person is both unbiblical and out of keeping with the doctrines of the Advent movement within the lifetime of Ellen White. Those who hold the view try to say it is the traditional Adventist view, and that the church has left its foundation on this point. They could hardly be less correct. The church had many members in the early days of the Advent movement, from many churches. In those days, Ellen White herself ate unclean meats. Should we all go back to that? Do we worship "tradition" or follow the Bible? The Advent message received more light, and gradually the views changed. This is as it should be. God is pleased when we grow in a knowledge of truth, and are willing to accept the new light.

Mrs. White, within the last decade of her life, wrote a number of statements regarding the office of the Holy Spirit which may differ from some of the early pioneers' beliefs, but which do not differ with our current doctrine (as far as I am aware).

Elle, if you haven't taken the time yet to do so, I would encourage you to read the list of Bible texts that I posted just above. I, too, like to support my doctrines on Bible alone, and the Bible is quite clear about the Holy Spirit if you study from the Majority Text translations. It is unfortunate that starting in the early 1900's, the Bible translators started using faulty, minority texts which they touted as more "ancient." The modern translations, as a result, have altered much on several key doctrines, one of them being the Holy Spirit. If you are using an NIV Bible or similar, and if you will not accept the KJV, then there will be great difficulty finding the truth about the Holy Spirit, as multiple key texts on the Holy Spirit have been changed or completely removed. It seems a new theology that is coming into Christianity in general, and not just the Adventist church. Personally, I am very uncomfortable with all of the new theological trends. Theistic evolution is now acceptable among most Christians. Homosexuality is becoming acceptable, as well as women's ordination, and a number of other "politically correct" beliefs. It is becoming a "hate crime" to speak against homosexuality, as if it were discriminatory. But if you use the NIV Bible, you will soon discover that homosexuality was painted in a much different light in its translation than in the faithful text of the KJV. All of these new doctrines started with the influence of two men: Westcott and Hort. They were not even Christians, but they took it upon themselves to undermine the KJV by retranslating the Bible into a more "acceptable" form. The Holy Spirit and Jesus were both undermined. Sin and sinfulness was not portrayed as so evil. In fact, the law is said to have been abolished. All of these changes are quickly recognized in the theology of Christians today. When the Bible changed, so did people's thinking. That should not be a surprise to us.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Elle, I agree with you that the truth about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is foundational. Getting it right is a matter of grave importance. The idea that Jesus is the result of divine mitosis, that He has not existed from eternity in the same sense as the Father, is pregnant with problems. And the idea that the Holy Spirit is not as much a person as the Father, that "it" is merely a metaphor for the thoughts and feelings of God, is also ripe with problems. For one thing it means there was an eternity when the Father dwelt all alone in a vast, empty universe. It also means Jesus is not equal to the Father in an essential sense, which, like angels, disqualifies Him to serve as our Savior.

If we presume to accept & imbibe this doctrine of Rome, indeed what she claims as her very central doctrine, upon which all other RC teachings are based, we should have very solid ground for our feet.

Years past I sat by the hospital bed of a veteran evangelical preacher who had recently joined my (SDA) church. We discussed numerous doctrinal points, some quite fresh to him, and how it drew division with his former denomination. But he concluded by exclaiming with conviction, that these matters of Sabbath, or soul sleep or atonement were quite immaterial, for we all held to the Trinity, the one unifying ecumenical bond. We were all one in the Trinity.

While the Trinity is a “mystery”, not so the Godhead: “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made,4161 even his eternal power and Godhead.” We are “without excuse” (Romans 1:20) if we fail to 'clearly' discern the Godhead.

(Note this word 4161 occurs one other time: “For we are his workmanship4161” – Ephesians 2:10.

The origins of the human order are seen in the Father and Son.

Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God. He was God’s Son long before creation, “whose goings forth4163 have been from of old,6924 from everlasting* 5769" (Micah 5:2)(*margin ~ Heb. the days of eternity)

Only at Bethlehem did He become Son of Man.

Christ’s going forth4163 (from 4161 ~ proceed, spring, bud...from root 3318 ~ And the earth brought forth grass – Genesis 1:12) is further described in the special passage of Proverbs 8:22-30.

Christ is known as the Wisdom of God – “Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God”…”But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory. (1 Corinthians 1:24; 1 Corinthians 2:7) “Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of they shall slay and persecute” (Luke 11:49)

Christ’s beginning is found in Proverbs 8, just as Sister White claims He is here speaking of Himself in Patriarchs & Prophets (1st chapter – no books with me for page reference) (Doubters of the KJV & EGW please note one finds three different Hebrew words translated as ‘wisdom’ in this chapter.)

Here's verse 22 as a sample study. Same truth revealed through verse 30.

“The LORD possessed me7069 in the beginning of7225 his way1870, before6924 his works4659 of old.227.”(Proverbs 8: 22)

• possessed me7069 – first found in Genesis 4:1 – “she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man7069 from the LORD.”
• in the beginning of7225 as in Genesis 1:1
• his way1870 as in “This is the way,1870 walk ye in it" Isaiah 30:21.
• before 6924 – as in Micah 5:2 above

This does not scratch the surface.

Elle, keep on with your KJV.

Green, are you finished with Jasher?

The Spirit of God or at time expressed as "the Holy Spirit" for God is Holy, so therefore His Spirit is Holy, I believe it is the Omnipresence of God. Since it is the "presence of God" therefore it is a person. It can be the Presence of Jesus, or it can be the Presence of the Father. But by making God's(the Father or Jesus) presence into another different person, is introducing "Spiritualism" into the doctrine.



Again, Green and all, there's numberous topics here on this forum on this subject. These Anti-trinitarian discussion becomes endless because convictions needs to come from the Lord. That's why I shared my personal trying to make that point.

FYI, Green and Gordon, I do use the KJV and ONLY the KJV!

Does it bother anyone else that the anti-trinitarian view means the Father existed for an eternity by Himself in a vast and void universe?

On the topic of versions of the Bible, I've discovered the importance in comparing translations. Sometimes there are translational errors in the NIV when the KJV is the most accurate, and in rare occasion the KJV projects old English errors corrected by NASB. As a result I prefer to use a comparative study Bible with NIV, KJV, NASB, and AMP. For the most part I rely on KJV unless something doesn't quite make sense (like water flowing from a jawbone or God instructing people to eat in the Most Holy Place). I do not have any faith in the Clear Word and have reservations against solely trusting the AMP or NIV when dealing with fundimental beliefs due to the false bias's made evident by the translators.

Back to the topic, I still see a very clear contradiction between Ellen White's statements about the Holy Spirit in the 73rd chapter of DA and anti-trinitarianism. I concur that there is only one true God but that God reveals himself to us in three distinct forms that would, by man's standards of reality, be three different persons. This is part of the reason we will be studying the nature of Christ and the act of salvation for eternity. I suspect there may be subtle truths mixed with error in the anti-trinitarian movement and that the generally accepted view of the trinity may also contain subtle points of confused truth (kind of like what happened during Ellen White's day when congregations were divided over whether we are saved by faith or works. Both parties had a part of the truth but both view points were also in error.)

Yes, and based on the view you are presenting, Gordon, there was a time when God existed, but His wisdom didn’t - which doesn’t make any sense.
And it should be noted that, even in the highly poetical language of Proverbs 8 - which wasn’t meant to be taken literally - what the text says is that at the beginning of His [God’s] way (which could be interpreted as "course of life"), He already possessed His wisdom.


Elle, how do you harmonize what you’ve just said with the fact that the Holy Spirit is called the third Person of the Godhead? And with the fact that the Godhead is called a heavenly Trio?

About John 16:13, 14. Do you see this as referring to the presence of the Father?

“However when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth; for He shall not speak from Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak; and He will show you things to come. He shall glorify Me...”

There is a sharp difference to make the third person another person beside the Father and the Son, versus acknowledging that the Father and Son are Spirit so therefore has an omnipresence which is called "spirit of Truth", or "holy spirit" or "holy ghost" or "spirit" that is the person of the omnipresence of the Father, or the Son.

This is how I understand it. v. 13 the Spirit of truth can be either Jesus or the Father or both.

Concerning Jesus's presence and His words, Jesus always says what He receives from the Father. It's always been like that, from the beginning of Creation and will be like that for eternity. Jesus is the "Word of God" and is also known as Wisdom, because Jesus is the vine and he is the Mediator of all life, and through Him The Father's words (which is filled with wisdom) are conveyed to all living creatures. That's the meaning of Life Eternal written in John 15 and in Prov 8.

Elle, how do you respond to the fact the view held by anti-trinitarians means the Father existed for an eternity by Himself in a vast and void universe until the day Jesus came along and started creating everything?