M: God would get their permission to cause them to understand the truth about His character and the resulting additional unnecessary suffering by simply asking them if He has their permission to do so.

T: You're assuming something unnecessary is happening. I disagree.

M:My question is aimed at God obtaining their permission.

I also agree with you God will not force it on them.

M: I am quite convinced they would refuse to permit it if God caused them to understand just exactly how painful it will be.

T: So you think God will force people to suffer arbitrarily against their will?

M:My question is aimed at what you believe. Do you believe God will cause them to understand the truth without obtaining their permission? Or, do you think they will already know it and that God needs to do nothing else?

T: People do things which result in suffering all the time. Please bear in mind that what causes the suffering is selfishness and sin. So if God asks them, "What do you prefer? Sin and selfishness, or righteousness?" and they answer "sin and selfishness" then are they not choosing suffering?

M:My question is aimed at what you believe. Do you believe the wicked will willingly give God permission to cause them to understand the truth knowing it will also result in them suffering additional emotional pain and agony above and beyond what will happen naturally simply because they are sinful and selfish?

M: True, that’s what you say it says. Let’s look at the quote and then I can see for myself. Please post it at your earliest convenience. Thank you.

T: So far I'm not having much luck, but I'll try some more.

M:Do you need the quote to verify what you believe? Or, do you think we should believe you simply because you say so?

M: I take it you believe getting in their heads and causing them to understand the truth about His character will only cause them to experience additional unnecessary suffering but it will not cause them to die?

T: 1.I didn't say anything about "getting in their heads."
2.God causes them to understand the truth by communicating the truth to them, and helping them understand it.
3.I'm against any idea of "additional unnecessary suffering."

1. See my response above.
2. Is it necessary?
3. Will it cause them to suffer above and beyond what you believe will be the natural and inevitable result of being sinful and selfish?

M: Instead, you believe they will suffer for the same reasons Jesus did and will die of heart failure due to broken heart syndrome just like Jesus did. Is this correct?

T: No. I didn't say this. Didn't I speak of how sin can cause death in different ways besides heart failure? I'm pretty sure I did.

M:Do you believe the wicked will suffer for the same reasons did?

And, do you believe they will die for the same reasons Jesus did?

If not, why do you insist we study the reasons why Jesus suffered and died in order to understand the reasons why the wicked will suffer and die?

1. I believe Jesus will resurrect the wicked with all five senses in working order so they can see, hear, and understand things as they unfold during the final judgment.

2. I believe God will be physically present during the final judgment.

3. I believe God will communicate verbally and visually during the final judgment.

4. I believe the radiant light of God’s person and presence will cause the wicked to suffer in proportion to their sinfulness and to die.

5. I believe literal fire from above and below will also play a part in causing the wicked to suffer and to die.

6. I believe Jesus suffered and died for reasons that are both similar and dissimilar to the reasons why the wicked will suffer and die during the final judgment.

7. I believe the just and loving demands of law and justice require Jesus to punish and destroy the wicked during the final judgment.

Perhaps you can respond to these points and explain why you agree or disagree with them. It would also be helpful, I suppose, if you were to delineate the truth as you see it.

It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. (GC 569)

Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God,
attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men.(DA 21.3)

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God....

The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. {ST, January 20, 1890}

Through the plan of salvation, a larger purpose is to be wrought out even than the salvation of man and the redemption of the earth. Through the revelation of the character of God in Christ, the beneficence of the divine government would be manifested before the universe, the charge of Satan refuted, the nature and result of sin made plain, and the perpetuity of the law fully demonstrated." (The Signs of the Times, February 13, 1893)

Every question of truth and error in the long-standing controversy has now been made plain. The results of rebellion, the fruits of setting aside the divine statutes, have been laid open to the view of all created intelligences. The working out of Satan's rule in contrast with the government of God has been presented to the whole universe. Satan's own works have condemned him. God's wisdom, His justice, and His goodness stand fully vindicated. It is seen that all His dealings in the great controversy have been conducted with respect to the eternal good of His people and the good of all the worlds that He has created. "All Thy works shall praise Thee, O Lord; and Thy saints shall bless Thee." Psalm 145:10. The history of sin will stand to all eternity as a witness that with the existence of God's law is bound up the happiness of all the beings He has created. With all the facts of the great controversy in view, the whole universe, both loyal and rebellious, with one accord declare: "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints." (GC 671.3)

1. I believe Jesus will resurrect the wicked with all five senses in working order so they can see, hear, and understand things as they unfold during the final judgment.

T: This doesn't make sense. It would just be confusing. People who have been blind all their life need a lot of time to adjust to seeing. It's to much information coming in. It's disorienting. This would be an awful thing to do to someone during a time of judgment, when clarity of thought is needed. The deaf don't understand spoken language. Their language is sign language. Sign language is very different than spoken language. Their whole way of thinking is different. They think visually, not with words. Hearing would be irrelevant to them. In addition to not making sense, it also disagrees with what the SOP said, that they will come out of the grave as they went in.

2. I believe God will be physically present during the final judgment.

T: I've never disagreed with this. I just made a passing comment, which had a context, and you focused on my passing comment without the context. My point is that it's not God's being physically present that's the important thing. It's the revelation of truth and love that's important. The really important thing happens individually between each person and God. Each one will be present at the judgment seat of Christ. This is physically impossible. But we know it will happen somehow, because Scripture tells us each one will appear before the judgment seat of Christ. So how does it happen? It happens by God's communicating, mind to mind, to each one.

3. I believe God will communicate verbally and visually during the final judgment.

T: What if the person is blind and deaf? Your suggesting that God, or Satan, will heal people so they can see and hear doesn't help, because the deaf/blind can't understand spoken language, or sing language. Their language is one communicated by touch. It's a type of sign language that's felt in the hands. If God were to communicate physically, this is how He'd have to do it. But how many deaf/blind people will there be in the judgment? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? There's no way God could physically communicate with all these people. So how will He do it? By communicating with their minds. There's a part of the brain which deals with language. God will communicate with that part of the brain in whatever language that person understands. Even among the blind and deaf I don't think you've considered that there are thousands of different languages involved. If God were limited to physical communication, which language would He use?

4. I believe the radiant light of God’s person and presence will cause the wicked to suffer in proportion to their sinfulness and to die.

T: Why would something physical result in proportional suffering? I don't see how this could happen.

5. I believe literal fire from above and below will also play a part in causing the wicked to suffer and to die.

T: A literal fire would result in a very quick death. But the SOP says that some will suffer for many days, so I don't see how this could be possible either.

6. I believe Jesus suffered and died for reasons that are both similar and dissimilar to the reasons why the wicked will suffer and die during the final judgment.

T: This is a bit vague, but I don't think anyone would disagree with this.

7. I believe the just and loving demands of law and justice require Jesus to punish and destroy the wicked during the final judgment.

T: I think this overlooks the fact that the law is a transcript of God's law. It has no will of its own. It merely expresses the will of God. It also fails to mention the real reason the wicked suffer and die, which is because of decisions they have made. Their destiny is fixed by their own choice. This is a key point!

T: You also mentioned nothing about the Great Controversy, or the vindication of God's character, or why the wicked were resurrected. Or the cross. These are all key factors that must be taken into account to understand the final judgement.

"Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work."

The Father has given the world into the hands of Christ, that through His mediatorial work He may redeem man and vindicate the authority and holiness of the law of God. {AG 43.3}

Christ came not only to vindicate the law before the inhabitants of this world, but by His life to settle forever the immutability of God's law. {SD 55.5}

Passing down through the centuries, we find that there came a time when God's law must once more be unmistakably revealed as the standard of obedience. Christ came to vindicate the sacred claims of the law. He came to live a life of obedience to its requirements and thus prove the falsity of the charge made by Satan that it is impossible for man to keep the law of God. {8T 207.3}

In becoming man's substitute, in bearing the curse which should fall upon man, Christ has pledged Himself in behalf of the race to maintain the sacred and exalted honor of His Father's law. . . . God has given the world into the hands of Christ, that He may completely vindicate the binding claims of the law and make manifest the holiness of every principle. {TMK 17.3}

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Here Jesus refutes the charge of the Pharisees. His mission to the world is to vindicate the sacred claims of that law which they charge Him with breaking. If the law of God could have been changed or abrogated, then Christ need not have suffered the consequences of our transgression. He came to explain the relation of the law to man, and to illustrate its precepts by His own life of obedience. {DA 307.4}

Jesus died to save His people from their sins, and redemption in Christ means to cease the transgression of the law of God and to be free from every sin; no heart that is stirred with enmity against the law of God is in harmony with Christ, who suffered on Calvary to vindicate and exalt the law before the universe. {FW 95.1}

The fact that the only-begotten Son of God gave His life because of man's transgression, to satisfy justice and to vindicate the honor of God's law, should be constantly kept before the minds of children and youth. The object of this great sacrifice should also be kept before them; for it was to uplift fallen man degraded by sin that this great sacrifice was made. Christ suffered in order that through faith in Him our sins might be pardoned. He became man's substitute and surety, Himself taking the punishment, though all undeserving, that we who deserved it might be free, and return to our allegiance to God through the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. He is our only hope of salvation. {FE 369.1}

The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest. Says the word of God: "Affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. The law of God, which Satan has reproached as the yoke of bondage, will be honored as the law of liberty. A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them as fathomless love and infinite wisdom. {GC 504.1}

But the plan of redemption had a yet broader and deeper purpose than the salvation of man. It was not for this alone that Christ came to the earth; it was not merely that the inhabitants of this little world might regard the law of God as it should be regarded; but it was to vindicate the character of God before the universe. . . The act of Christ in dying for the salvation of man would not only make heaven accessible to men, but before all the universe it would justify God and His Son in their dealing with the rebellion of Satan. It would establish the perpetuity of the law of God and would reveal the nature and the results of sin. {PP 68.2}

From the first the great controversy had been upon the law of God. Satan had sought to prove that God was unjust, that His law was faulty, and that the good of the universe required it to be changed. In attacking the law he aimed to overthrow the authority of its Author. In the controversy it was to be shown whether the divine statutes were defective and subject to change, or perfect and immutable. {PP 69.1}

What about the blind and deaf people Jesus healed? There’s no indication they had a hard time adjusting immediately.

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.(John 21:25)

I suspect it’s because Jesus completely restored them.

Also, A&E were created with the ability to speak and understand language. I suspect Jesus will do the same with the deaf and mute. Or, do you think Jesus is incapable of resurrecting them with the ability to see and hear and to speak and understand language?

A hundred years ago people would have scoffed at the idea of millions of people all over the world simultaneously watching and listening to Doug Batchelor telling the truth about Jesus. And yet it happens all the time.

Do you think Jesus is incapable of conducting the final judgment in a way that enables everyone everywhere to feel as though they are the only one standing in judgment?

Also, do you believe God will be physically present during the final judgment? I realize you’ve never disagreed with this idea, but you’ve also never said you believe He will be there physically?

Do you believe God has a physical body? Or, do you believe He is a disembodied spirit?

See my responses above. Also, do you believe God will not communicate verbally and visually, that He will only communicate using the “mind-to-mind" method you described above?

4. I believe the radiant light of God’s person and presence will cause the wicked to suffer in proportion to their sinfulness and to die.

T: Why would something physical result in proportional suffering? I don't see how this could happen.

M:Do you believe it is physically impossible for Jesus to accomplish what I said?

And, do you believe God works now to supernaturally prevent sinners, including evil angels, from suffering and dying in proportion to their sinfulness? Also, do you believe Jesus will have to work to supernaturally prevent the wicked from dying prematurely during the final judgment?

T: I think this overlooks the fact that the law is a transcript of God's law. It has no will of its own. It merely expresses the will of God. It also fails to mention the real reason the wicked suffer and die, which is because of decisions they have made. Their destiny is fixed by their own choice. This is a key point!

M:Do you agree that the law can only condemn sinners and that it cannot pardon them?

If so, do you think in this regard it reflects the character of God?

If not, do you think God is in contradiction of Himself?/quote]

My point is that God is not in contradiction with Himself, and because of this it doesn't make sense to speak in terms of God's being "required" to do things because of the law.

[quote]8. I believe Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death to earn the legal right to pardon and save penitent sinners and to do earn the legal right to punish and destroy impenitent sinners. In so doing He has and will vindicate the kingdom and character of God.

9. I believe Jesus will resurrect the wicked to judge and punish them according to their sinfulness. In so doing He will satisfy the just and loving demands of law and justice.