|
Forums118
Topics9,218
Posts195,997
Members1,324
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12372
02/05/05 05:44 AM
02/05/05 05:44 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Rosangela: Tom, I hope you are having a happy sabbath. I will have many activities at church tomorrow, therefore I will reply to your post today. I will not refer to the points in which we are basically in agreement, just to those with which I have problems. Tom: Thank you for the good wishes. Happy Sabbath to you to. It's a good idea to pare down these dialogs from time to time, otherwise they get too long and hard to follow. quote:
Is pain a result of sin? When people sin, does God visit them with pain? Is misery a result of sin? Does God make people miserable because they sin? Or does sin make people miserable?
Rosangela: That’s not my point; of course sin produces bad results of itself. The point is: if God chooses to destroy sin, He is inevitably choosing to destroy sinners. And if the destruction of sinners is a result of God’s choice and intervention, it is not just a natural result. Of course everything is the natural result of something else, but there may be something more to it. As I said before, the punishment of a criminal is the natural result of his acts, but it is also a penalty imposed by the State.
Tom: There's a huge difference between our government and God's government. In our government (I'm using "government" in an all-exclusive sense, encompassing our human existence) the law of consequences is not necessarily followed. People do wicked things without receiving punishment.
However, in God's government, it is not possible to avoid punishment because God's law (or God Himself) is omnipresent. As soon as one sins, there is the law present to condemn. The only reason people to not die here and now is because of the grace of God. As soon as God ceases extending grace, the wicked die.
As you yourself put it, God controls His attributes so the wicked will not be prematurely destroyed. As soon as God stops allowing the wicked to exist by circumventing the law of sin and death, they die.
The Spirit of Prophesy explains it like this:
1) The wicked place themselves so out of harmony with God that His presence is to them a consuming fire.
2) The glory of God destroys them.
In GC 541 she writes:
1) The wicked would long to flee from heaven if God were to take them there.
2) Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God.
Remember that when Christ comes the wicked will cry out for the mountains to fall on their heads? The glory of God is very uncomfortable to them. They can't stand it. The prefer to die. God, in love, justice and mercy, gives them over to their choice. This is His wrath.
quote:
None of us are worthy of live. God gives us life by His grace.
Rosangela: As I see it, we are made worthy of life by Christ’s blood. Anyway, I was just echoing Ellen White’s words:
“But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression,-- ‘the wages of sin.’ They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, ‘according to their works,’ but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with his justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited, and of which he has proved himself unworthy” (GC 544).
Tom: How does God deprive them of their existentce? DA 764 tells us how. He gives them over to their choice. They reap that which they have sown. God's presence to them is a consuming fire. His glory destroys them. This is how they are punished. This is how they receive the penalty.
Old Rosangela: Every time God deprived sinners of life (the flood, Sodom, etc.), it was in mercy to others. Sin is infectious and is constantly spreading. Therefore, God removes the incurable offenders so that He can save those who can still be saved. That’s what happened in the past and that’s what will happen in the end. At least this is how I see it.
Old Tom: IMO this is missing the whole point of what the Great Controversy is about and what the chapter "It Is Finished" is discussing.
New Improved Rosangela: I was not trying to cover all the aspects involved in the Great Controversy, but was again just echoing some of EGW’s words:
“Like the waters of the flood, the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable. ... In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy he destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan, the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain's and in Noah's day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of his grace.” (GC 543).
New Improved Tom: It has always been God's purpose to bring sin to an end as quickly as possible. The judgment will show that He has been successful to this end (that is, sin could not have been destroyed any faster than it was).
An issue that must be faced is that sin must be destroyed in a way so that it will not pop up again. In order to do this, the issues which Satan brought against God must be demonstrated to be false.
I see 3 main falsehoods:
1) God is not trustworthy.
2) Sin does not lead to death.
3) The principle of self-exaltation.
Only after all intelligent free will creatures undestand that the falsehoods really are false can God safely bring sin to an end.
If all that were involved in getting rid of sin were destroying sinners, God could have gotten rid of sin a long time ago. And remember that sin arose in the first place *when there were no sinners or sin*. This shows that merely getting rid of sin and sinners is not sufficient to deal with the problem.
quote:
The death of Christ shows that sin *does* result in death...
Rosangela: This is another facet of this view I have problems with. Its main point of emphasis is that Christ’s death was to *show* that sin results in death. Every time you spoke about the cross showing that sin results in death, you had in mind the sinless inhabitants of the universe (who wouldn’t understand Satan’s death). What exactly did the cross do for the sinful inhabitants of this world?
Tom: I've addressed this at length in other topics. In fact, I initiated a topic entitiled "Why did Jesus have to die" where I treated this at length. I also discussed it in a topic I started entitled "Justification."
I'll provide some thoughts here and invite you to either read what I've written in the aforementioned topics, or ask me for more detail on any point you're interested in.
First of all, the death of Christ accomplishes something for every single person. It's not simply something which benefits one potentially, but actually. It is to the death of Christ that we owe our earthly life. Never one, saint or sinner, partakes of His daily food but He is nourished by the body and blood of Christ (DA 660). Everything we have, we owe to the cross. All blessings, from the smallest to the largest, are of infinite value because of the blood of Christ (FW 21, 21). Through Christ's death, the entire human race was restored to favor with God. (1SM 343)
For Scriptures which deal with this theme, please see 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 19; Rom. 5:18; Isa. 44:22; 1 John 2:2; 1 Tim. 4:10
The previous paragraph dealt with what Christ did for the human race. He provided a legal or corporate justification for all. That justification becomes effective in the lives of all who believe. Thus Christ is the Savior of every man, especially of those who believe. (1 Tim. 4:10)
The cross of Christ demonstrates the truth about God. It shows us the character of God the Father, who risked losing His Son for all eternity for our redemption. (DA 49, 131; COL 196) The cross shows that God so loved the world that He gave His only Son.
The cross also shows God's character by showing us Jesus, because when we've seen Jesus, we've seen the Father. Christ gave Himself for us. (Gal. 1:4) This shows that God would give Himself for us. Thus through the cross we see the truth of God both by looking at God the Father and God the Son.
The cross brings about our reconciliation with God, in both legally and experientially. As 2 Cor. 5:14, 15 says, Christ died for all so that they who live would live for them who died for them. The idea is that as we perceive the truth about God, our hearts will turn to Him in thankfulness for what He has done for us. At infinite cost to Himself, He has provided us the opportunity to be forgiven and spend eternity with Him.
The cross shows us the truth about sin. It shows us that sin is lethal. This aspect of the cross has been highlighted in this topic. It is an important point, as it is on this point that Satan flatly accused God of lying. This is also the point that the angels did not understand which prevented God from allowing Satan to reap the consequences of his sin earlier (DA 764)
The cross shows us the truth about ourselves. By nature, we our murderes of God.
The cross shows us the truth about Satan. Through the cross, Satan was unmasked in front of the unfallen beings, thus vastly limiting his influence.
The cross secured the eternal security of the universe.
According the Spirit of Prophesy, it is from the cross that all influence emanates. What didn't the cross do!
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12373
02/06/05 04:25 AM
02/06/05 04:25 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Tom, I agree with Roseangela.
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12374
02/06/05 05:57 AM
02/06/05 05:57 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12375
02/06/05 02:00 PM
02/06/05 02:00 PM
|
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
|
|
quote:
The previous paragraph dealt with what Christ did for the human race. He provided a legal or corporate justification for all.
Tom,
As I see it, legal justification only makes sense within the forensic view. If there is no penalty for sin, what is the point of Christ's righteousness being imputed to us? None whatsoever. Accepting some forensic aspects of the forensic view, but not others, does not make sense to me.
The forensic view, on the other hand, is consistent throughout: the law, the constitution of God’s government, demands perfect obedience. Everyone who does not comply with its standard is subject to its penalty. Thus, transgression put man under the death sentence; Christ came and suffered man’s penalty, reprieving him – thus, when he is justified, the heavenly tribunal pronounces him righteous and the penalty is remitted. Those, however, who don’t accept Christ’s sacrifice in their place will be condemned by the heavenly tribunal and will have to finally suffer the penalty.
Ellen White presents all these concepts:
“The broken law of God demanded the life of the sinner. In all the universe there was but one who could, in behalf of man, satisfy its claims. Since the divine law is as sacred as God Himself, only one equal with God could make atonement for its transgression.” (PP 63)
"The penalty for the least transgression of that law is death, and but for Christ, the sinner's Advocate, it would be summarily visited on every offender. Justice and mercy are blended. Christ and the law stand side by side. The law convicts the transgressor, and Christ pleads in the sinner's behalf." (ST, August 25, 1887)
"Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon." (6BC 1099)
“As man's substitute and surety, the iniquity of men was laid upon Christ; He was counted a transgressor that He might redeem them from the curse of the law....He, the sin-bearer, endures judicial punishment for iniquity and becomes sin itself for man.” (SR 225)
"When sinners seek God, and in repentance confess their sin, he pardons their transgressions, remits their punishment, and receives them into fellowship with himself, as if they had never transgressed. He imparts to them the righteousness of Christ" (YI, March 1, 1900).
"It is the Father's prerogative to forgive our transgressions and sins, because Christ has taken upon Himself our guilt and reprieved us, imputing to us His own righteousness. His sacrifice satisfies fully the demands of justice" (FW 103,104).
As to the final judgment, it is said:
"The judgment scene will take place in the presence of all the worlds; for in this judgment the government of God will be vindicated, and His law will stand forth as 'holy, and just, and good.' Then every case will be decided, and sentence will be passed upon all. Sin will not then appear attractive, but will be seen in all its hideous magnitude. (SD 361)
"The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them." (GC 668)
This is not God just looking to kill anyone who disagrees with Him, but God fulfilling the role He is duty-bound to carry out, the penalty phase of any trial and conviction. That anyone has to die at that time, however, is only the natural consequence of them refusing to accept the offer of forgiveness and healing.
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12376
02/07/05 04:40 AM
02/07/05 04:40 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Roseangela, thank you for all the SOP quotes. Clearly, and without a doubt, God will punish and kill unrepentant sinners in the lake of fire. Anyone who despises and rejects the blood of God's only begotten Son are worthy of the most horrible punishment and death. God's thirst for justice, retribution and vengenance must be appeased.
Tom, this doesn't mean God is a blood thirsty monster, who is eagerly wringing His fingers and licking His lips, anxiously waiting for the day He can torture and kill unrepentant sinners. No,, of course not. But although God hestitates to execute justice and vengeance, because He is not willing that any should be lost, but that all should come to repentance, He will, nevertheless, pour out His wrath upon those who deserve it. He will not clear the guilty.
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12377
02/06/05 10:47 PM
02/06/05 10:47 PM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Rosangela: As I see it, legal justification only makes sense within the forensic view. Tom: "Legal" and "forensic" mean the same thing. Rosangela: If there is no penalty for sin, what is the point of Christ's righteousness being imputed to us? Tom: There is a penalty for sin. The penalty is death. Sin results in death. Righteousness results in life. The wages, or penalty, of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. Rosangela: None whatsoever. Accepting some forensic aspects of the forensic view, but not others, does not make sense to me. The forensic view, on the other hand, is consistent throughout: the law, the constitution of God’s government, demands perfect obedience. Everyone who does not comply with its standard is subject to its penalty. Thus, transgression put man under the death sentence; Christ came and suffered man’s penalty, reprieving him – thus, when he is justified, the heavenly tribunal pronounces him righteous and the penalty is remitted. Those, however, who don’t accept Christ’s sacrifice in their place will be condemned by the heavenly tribunal and will have to finally suffer the penalty. Tom: It is unbelief that brings condemnation. If our hearts do not condemn us, we have full assurance before God. (1 John 5:21). Why are those who don't accept Christ's sacrifice in their place condemned? Because they have not believed. (John 3:18) The forensic justification was for the whole race. See FW 21, 22 for a full explanation. To the death of Christ we owe even our earthly life. Never one, saint or sinner, partakes of his daily food but he is nourished by the body and blood of Christ. (DA 660) Christ by His wonderful work restored the entire race to favor with God. This is forensic justification, effective for the entire world. Christ signed the emancipation papers of the human race with His blood. (MH 89) This is forensice, or legal, or corporate justification. When the sinner believes in his heart, he is justified by faith. Jesus explained this to Nicodemus: quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.
If the sinner does not resist the grace of God, he will be saved.
Rosangela: Ellen White presents all these concepts:
“The broken law of God demanded the life of the sinner. In all the universe there was but one who could, in behalf of man, satisfy its claims. Since the divine law is as sacred as God Himself, only one equal with God could make atonement for its transgression.” (PP 63)
Tom: If you read what Ellen White says about atonement you will see that she explains it as the "at-one-ment," which is bringing man to God. This is just what Peter says in 1 Peter 2:24 -- that Jesus bore our sins in His body to bring us to God. There is no doubt that Christ had to die (which is paying the penalty for sin, since the penalty of sin is death). The question is, why? How does Christ's death "bring us to God"? How does it reconcile us? How does it bring about an at-one-ment.
The quote in DA above explains how. When the sinner perceives the love of God, he is brought to repentance, and brought into harmony with God.
Rosangela: "The penalty for the least transgression of that law is death, and but for Christ, the sinner's Advocate, it would be summarily visited on every offender. Justice and mercy are blended. Christ and the law stand side by side. The law convicts the transgressor, and Christ pleads in the sinner's behalf." (ST, August 25, 1887)
"Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon." (6BC 1099)
“As man's substitute and surety, the iniquity of men was laid upon Christ; He was counted a transgressor that He might redeem them from the curse of the law....He, the sin-bearer, endures judicial punishment for iniquity and becomes sin itself for man.” (SR 225)
"When sinners seek God, and in repentance confess their sin, he pardons their transgressions, remits their punishment, and receives them into fellowship with himself, as if they had never transgressed. He imparts to them the righteousness of Christ" (YI, March 1, 1900).
"It is the Father's prerogative to forgive our transgressions and sins, because Christ has taken upon Himself our guilt and reprieved us, imputing to us His own righteousness. His sacrifice satisfies fully the demands of justice" (FW 103,104).
OK, I'm going to stop here because this is getting to be too many quotes. I'll deal with the one on the judgment later. Regarding these on salvation, these are all saying the same thing.
From a legal standpoint, Christ restored the entire race to favor with God. This legal aspect involves every person. Please read Faith and Works 21, 22 which explains this in great detail.
The following Scriptures also talk of it: Rom. 5:18; 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 19; 1 Tim. 4:10; Isa 44:22; 1 John 2:2.
Regarding justification by faith, the quote from DA on Nicodemus explains the concept very well. Man's heart is not right with God. He is restored when he believes the truth about God as revealed in Jesus Christ. As man believes, he is brought into harmony with God; the law of God is written in the heart.
Instead of just quoting a whole bunch of EGW quotes, I would find it more helpful if you quoted fewer and commented on them as to why you are quoting them. I cannot read your mind, so I don't know your point unless you tell me. Please quote a few statements and make your point. If you have more statements and some other point, I would appreciate it if you made another post.
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12378
02/07/05 04:08 AM
02/07/05 04:08 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
quote:
He will, nevertheless, pour out His wrath upon those who deserve it. He will not clear the guilty.
Yes, it is true that God will give the wicked over to the results of their choice, as DA 764 points out, as this is exactly what God's wrath is, which all of the following Scriptures point out.
quote:
"Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods." (Deut 31:17, 18)
"They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city.
." (Jer. 33:5)
"For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.
Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.
Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes." (2 Chron 29: 6, 8)
"And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.
And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight." (2 Kings 17:17-20)
"Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation." (Ps. 27:9)
"How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?" (Ps. 89:46)
"Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit." (Ps. 143:7)
"Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!" (Hosea 9:12)
"The LORD was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.
And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation (wrath JB) of his anger the king and the priest.
The LORD hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast." (Lam. 2:5-7)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. (Rom. 1:18-26)
A final comment is that God's wrath was also poured out upon Christ in the same manner, as Romans 4:25 tells us that Christ was "delivered" for our offences, which is the same word used above in Romans 1 translated "given up."
Noone who refuses to give up sin, not one guilty person, will escape the penatly of sin:
quote:
In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Gen. 32: 30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. DA 107, 108
Note it's the same thing which imparts life to the righteous that slays the wicked! God is just Himself. The wicked destroy themselves by putting themselves out of harmony with God.
quote:
God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. COL 84
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12379
02/07/05 04:53 AM
02/07/05 04:53 AM
|
OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Tom: I didn't see your last comment when I suggested you comment on what you quote; sorry about that. I thank you for your thoughts, as it makes it easier to see what your thinking than just quotes. I also thank you for the continued dialog. It's been very helpful for me. "The judgment scene will take place in the presence of all the worlds; for in this judgment the government of God will be vindicated, and His law will stand forth as 'holy, and just, and good.' Then every case will be decided, and sentence will be passed upon all. Sin will not then appear attractive, but will be seen in all its hideous magnitude. (SD 361) I would like to comment on the part which I put in bold. This is a very important principle. God has told us that sin will result in death. Sin is lethal. The cross of Christ shows this to be the case. And also the death of the wicked, which this quote points out. When we underestimate the hideousness of sin, we are led in overstating God's role in the destruction of the wicked.When we see sin as a weak thing, then God must do the destruction, because sin is weak and can't do it by itself. But sin is not weak! The destruction of the wicked will show this to be the case. Note the following: quote:
God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. COL 84
This also shows the lethality of sin.
quote:
But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. GC 36
Shows the same thing. God is not to be looked at as an executioner. The wicked reap that which they have sown.
quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. DA 107
Same idea. It is the glory of God which destroys sin. Note continuing down on the same quote that the same thing that destroys the wicked gives life to the righteous!
quote:
The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. DA 108
This is reminiscent of Isa 33:14, 15
quote:
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? 15 He that walketh righteously
Again this principle is explained in DA 764
quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
Here is what we have seen:
1) God destroys no one.
2) The wicked destroy themselves.
3) Unbelief sows a sure harvest.
4) God is not to be looked upon as an executioner.
5) The same glory of God which gives life to the rightoues destroys the wicked.
6) God is a consuming fire to sin, so those who place themselves out of harmony with God, who insist on clinging to it, will be destroyed by God's glory.
"The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them." (GC 668)
Yes, this is exactly right! Sin results in death. That is exactly what will happen to the wicked. Although God does not stand before the wicked as an executioner, the wicked will have destroyed themselves by placing themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence to them is a consuming fire, and they are destroyed.
In fact, it is in mercy that God allows the wicked to be destroyed, as they have no desire to live with God:
quote:
A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. GC 543
Rosangela: This is not God just looking to kill anyone who disagrees with Him, but God fulfilling the role He is duty-bound to carry out, the penalty phase of any trial and conviction. That anyone has to die at that time, however, is only the natural consequence of them refusing to accept the offer of forgiveness and healing.
Tom: You yourself said that God controls His own attributes so the wicked are not destroyed before their time. You are exactly right! At the right time, at the judgment, God stops controling His attributes, and the wicked die; His glory destroys them, just as we have read many, many times. This is how God carries out the penalty phase.
Here's one more quote that explains the principle that it is the glory of God which destroys:
quote:
Had He appeared with the glory that was His with the Father before the world was, we could not have endured the light of His presence. That we might behold it and not be destroyed, the manifestation of His glory was shrouded. His divinity was veiled with humanity,--the invisible glory in the visible human form. DA 23
If God's glory had not been shrouded, it would have destroyed us. At the judgment of the wicked, it is not shrouded, and it will destroy.
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12380
02/07/05 10:56 AM
02/07/05 10:56 AM
|
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
|
|
Tom,
My point is crystal clear. The law demanding the life of the sinner is very different from a “natural result”. Justice demanding that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed doesn’t refer to just a “natural result”. Christ enduring JUDICIAL punishment for iniquity doesn’t refer to just a “natural result”. Death sentence passed upon the wicked is referring to the decision of a tribunal to punish for high treason, not just to a “natural result”. No one would describe the penalty phase of any trial as just a natural result; no one would describe the sentence of a tribunal as just a natural result. That has been my point the whole time.
Having said that, I would like to say that my position is that the penalty for the transgression of the law is having to face the wrath of God against SIN, which will inevitably result in the death of the sinner. The wrath of God, however, is primarily against SIN, and by destroying sin the wrath of God will be appeased. I believe what will happen to the wicked, however, is similar to what happened at the death of Christ:
"The Captain of our salvation was perfected through suffering. His soul was made an offering for sin. It was necessary for the awful darkness to gather about His soul because of the withdrawal of the Father's love and favor; for He was standing in the sinner's place, and this darkness every sinner must experience. The righteous One must suffer the condemnation and wrath of God, not in vindictiveness; for the heart of God yearned with greatest sorrow when His Son, the guiltless, was suffering the penalty of sin. (7BC 924).
[ February 07, 2005, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]
|
|
|
Re: Can Sin be Destroyed By Destroying Sinners?
#12381
02/07/05 05:10 PM
02/07/05 05:10 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Roseangela, sin cannot sin. Only free moral agents (FMAs) can choose to sin. Therefore, the wrath of God will be poured out upon sinners who refused to embrance Jesus, who rejected His blood. In destroying unrepentant sinners God effectively eliminates sin.
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
