Tom, you have yet to address the question that serves as title for this thread.

Saying we need to study Jesus in the NT doesn't explain, for example, why He commanded Moses to kill sinners.

Nor do your analogies include the fact Jesus withdrew His protection on certain occasions and permitted nature or evil men or evil angels to punish and kill sinners. For example, you mentioned a father letting go and leaving his drug-addicted son to pursue a self-destroying lifestyle. Your analogy leaves out the part where Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted nature or evil men or evil angels to punish and kill sinners.

Unless, of course, you believe the father possessed the power to prevent his son from suffering the ill-effects of drug use while living under his care and roof.

No. Jesus didn't come the first time to destroy sinners. He came to demonstrate how converted born again believers can live in harmony with the will of God for them. He didn't come to demonstrate what He will do with unsaved sinners during the final judgment. Do you agree?

M: Tom, you have yet to address the question that serves as title for this thread.

T: I answered it many times. Probably over a dozen at least.

M: Saying we need to study Jesus in the NT doesn't explain, for example, why He commanded Moses to kill sinners.

T: You're assuming something about what the account means. This is where I think in your error, in your understand of what happened. So I suggested things which I think would help to have a proper understanding. That's reasonable, isn't it?

M: Nor do your analogies include the fact Jesus withdrew His protection on certain occasions and permitted nature or evil men or evil angels to punish and kill sinners. For example, you mentioned a father letting go and leaving his drug-addicted son to pursue a self-destroying lifestyle. Your analogy leaves out the part where Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted nature or evil men or evil angels to punish and kill sinners.

T: No it doesn't. The point was that there comes a time when a free moral agent has made a choice, and that agent must be left to receive the results of his choice.

M: Unless, of course, you believe the father possessed the power to prevent his son from suffering the ill-effects of drug use while living under his care and roof.

T: He could have kept him in by force, right?

T: No it doesn't. The point was that there comes a time when a free moral agent has made a choice, and that agent must be left to receive the results of his choice.

M: Unless, of course, you believe the father possessed the power to prevent his son from suffering the ill-effects of drug use while living under his care and roof.

T: He could have kept him in by force, right?

M: I don't think the Samaritans were guilty of sinning against God in the same way S&G were guilty of sinning against God. Instead, I believe they were in a similar state as the Amorties when Jesus told Abraham she would not be "utterly destroyed" "until the fourth generation" "for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full". In the same way and for the same reasons Jesus did not give the disciples permission to call down fire upon the Samaritans.

K: So would you say that if the Samaritan's cup was full, He would have given them permission?

M: No. Jesus didn't come the first time to destroy sinners. He came to demonstrate how converted born again believers can live in harmony with the will of God for them. He didn't come to demonstrate what He will do with unsaved sinners during the final judgment. Do you agree?

K: But, didn't you just say that "In the same way and for the same reasons Jesus did not give the disciples permission to call down fire upon the Samaritans"? Meaning, to me, that if their iniquity was full, he would have given His disciples permission. So why the bit about the "first time"? And what about Abraham's time, was that the "first time", prior time, or.... Do you hear what I'm asking: first it's ok, then not ok, then ok? What was the disciples "spirit"? For example, if I want to call fire from heaven down on someone, how can I make sure I have the "right" spirit?

Tom, do you believe the reason why Jesus commanded Moses to kill sinners is because the cup of Israel's iniquity was full and He gave them up to serve sin. Is that your answer to the title question?

PS - Never mind our dialog between this post and 123753. Things got too dissected.

I was addressing why Jesus didn't call down fire on the Samaritans. Yes, the "spirit" of the disciples was wrong. And, yes, there were times when Jesus thought the time was right for destruction, and times when thought the time was not right.