Thank you for answering my questions. Do you think the main reason Jesus commanded Moses to kill sinners was because sin-hardened Jews expected it? If so, was it wrong or sinful for Jesus to command killing sinners? And, was it wrong or sinful for Moses to obey Jesus' command to kill sinners? I know I've asked these questions before, but I do not remember your answers.

MM,

We may have a communication problem, because I don't see how my questions are polar opposite from what you've said. You said that the disciples did not have the right spirit. Logic requires that the disciples could have had the right spirit. Therefore, I asked what was that spirit they had, how could they get the right spirit. This is a practical question, it has to do with capital punishment, so I think this is a highly relevant question.

You are asking Tom about Moses killing sinners. There are other examples where there was not a direct command from Jesus to kill people. Ignoring for the moment why they were told to, relate the past with the disciples wanting to call fire down on the Samaritans. Why was that different than in times past? The disciples must not have thought it was any different. You said they did not have the right spirit. In what way could they get the right spirit like those of times past?

How can you dismiss it by saying it was for "wicked, unholy, selfish reasons", how do you know that? I did not gather that from the Luke story. I saw the disciples wanting to do it for righteous reasons and expected it fit in fully with what Jesus wanted. Why did Jesus not command the disciples to call down fire on the Samaritans just like Moses? If you say it was not the right time, seem my previous post for that question.

Kland, the difference between Jesus commanding people like Moses to kill sinners and James and John asking Jesus for permission to call down fire on the Samaritans has to do with who initiated it. James and John, not Jesus, initiated calling down fire on the Samaritans. They were annoyed and indignant because they felt Jesus wasn't receiving the honor and respect He deserved. Ellen wrote:

"James and John, Christ's messengers, were greatly annoyed at the insult shown to their Lord. They were filled with indignation because He had been so rudely treated by the Samaritans whom He was honoring by His presence. They had recently been with Him on the mount of transfiguration, and had seen Him glorified by God, and honored by Moses and Elijah. This manifest dishonor on the part of the Samaritans, should not, they thought, be passed over without marked punishment. {DA 487.1}

Jesus never commanded people like Moses to kill sinners because they failed to invite someone to stay the night.

No to all questions. None of this reflects my thinking.

Well, I'm a little confused.

You said before:

Would you like to reword that statement?

Because if not, logic still requires an answer to the question of how could they be in the right spirit in wanting to call down fire?

In the first of John 9, Jesus said to shake off the dust against those who don't receive them. In Chapter 10, He said if no son of peace were in a house it would return to them. Where do you think the disciples got the idea of calling down fire on the Samaritans? Some versions have 9:54 saying "just as Elijah did". I don't think they thought to call down fire on them because they wouldn't let them spend the night. The context means more than that.

Who initiated Elijah calling down fire?

Could there be the slightest possibility we are not correctly understanding "what manner of spirit you are of" in verse 55?

Is that how you'd like to leave it? Or, would you like to summarize what you believe as to why Jesus commanded people like Moses to kill sinners? Again, I suspect you feel as though you've clearly answered this question beyond question or misunderstanding, however, the truth is I was thoroughly and completely surprised you didn't answer the first question above with a resounding, YES!!! I correctly assumed you'd answer the other two questions with, No.

Kland, Jesus told James and John, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of." I believe this means Jesus felt their spirit, their motive, their attitude, their reasons for wanting to call down fire on the Samaritans was wrong. Do you agree?

You asked, "Logic still requires an answer to the question of how could they be in the right spirit in wanting to call down fire?" The answer is, They couldn't. The time was not right for Jesus to destroy the Samaritans.

Nevertheless, I believe there were times when Jesus felt it was right to rain down fire on sinners. For example, Jesus felt the time was right to incinerate every man, woman, and child in S&G. He also felt the time was right to incinerate Nadab and Abihu. He also felt the time was right to incinerate the 250 sympathizers who lamented the destruction and death of Korah and company. I assume you disagree?

Did Elijah initiate calling down fire upon the Samaritan soldiers? Ellen wrote: "Twice Ahaziah sent a company of soldiers to intimidate the prophet, and twice the wrath of God fell upon them in judgment. {PK 208.3} What thinkest thou? Who initiated it?

Oh absolutely, I didn't think there was any question to that. The question is you said it was a wrong spirit and so what would be the right spirit. Do you wish to reword your statement?

If it was all just a timing issue, don't you think Jesus was a little harsh with His disciples? I mean, if Jesus was going to burn them anyway, why wouldn't He tell his disciples that their cup was not full instead of saying they didn't know what spirit they were of. What spirit were they of, poor timing?


Well, it's kind of hard to agree or disagree when I don't believe Jesus in the past, then, in the present, nor in the future is going to set people on fire.


What did the disciples believe?

No. I believe it is accurate to say "Jesus felt their spirit, their motive, their attitude, their reasons for wanting to call down fire on the Samaritans was wrong." There are times, however, when having the right spirit based on the right reasons reflects the will of God. The right spirit, as you know, is a sorrowful spirit. Jesus does not delight in destroying sinners.


No, Jesus wasn't too harsh. Their reasons for wanting to call down fire are never right even if the time was right.


What do you think happened that the sinners named above were burned alive and died?


They probably believed, like Ellen, that Jesus initiated it. But their reasons for wanting to call down fire were wholly unlike Jesus' reasons for wanting Elijah to do it. Motive matters.

I've already written so much in regards to this, I don't see how repeating something at this stage would help any. What I write is forgotten, and what I suggest is completely ignored.