M: Did Elijah initiate calling down fire upon the Samaritan soldiers? Ellen wrote: "Twice Ahaziah sent a company of soldiers to intimidate the prophet, and twice the wrath of God fell upon them in judgment. {PK 208.3} What thinkest thou? Who initiated it?

K: What did the disciples believe?

M:They probably believed, like Ellen, that Jesus initiated it.

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. (Deut 31:17, 18)

They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city. (Jer. 33:5)

For our fathers have trespassed, and done that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD our God, and have forsaken him, and have turned away their faces from the habitation of the LORD, and turned their backs.

Also they have shut up the doors of the porch, and put out the lamps, and have not burned incense nor offered burnt offerings in the holy place unto the God of Israel.
Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes. (2 Chron 29: 6, 8)

And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.

Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made.
And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight. (2 Kings 17:17-20)

Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation. (Ps. 27:9)

How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire? (Ps. 89:46)

Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit. (Ps. 143:7)

Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them! (Hosea 9:12)

The LORD was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.

And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation (wrath JB) of his anger the king and the priest.

The LORD hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the LORD, as in the day of a solemn feast. (Lam. 2:5-7)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. (Rom. 1:18-26)

I've already written so much in regards to this, I don't see how repeating something at this stage would help any. What I write is forgotten, and what I suggest is completely ignored.

The wrath of God is not His getting angry and smiting people, but His reluctant withdraw, allowing people to experience the result of their choice.

Let's, as you have implored us, study this insight in light of Jesus while He was here in the flesh. When did Jesus, while here in the flesh, withdraw His protection and permit evil to befall sinners? Yes, He said would He do so after He returned to Heaven (referring to the destruction of Jews and Jerusalem in 70 AD), but what about while He was here in the flesh?

Hey, come on, give me a break, two out of three ain't bad, right! Was I totally and utterly wrong for thinking you believe Jesus commanded Moses to kill sinners on account of sin-hardened Jews? Or, is there a smidgen of truth to it?

Ok, let's study what Jesus Christ lived and taught in regards to violence. How did Christ respond when His disciples wanted to use violence to protect Him? How did He respond when His disciples wanted to use violence to punish? How did Christ Himself respond to those who would violently treat Him?

With regards to your question, in the flesh Christ said, in regards to Jerusalem, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" (Luke 13:34)

Here Christ speaks of the protection He longed to offer Jerusalem, but they would not.

I've repeatedly said I think the capital punishment is similar in character to polygamy, wanting a king, divorce, etc. I've also present the father/hunter as an analogy as to what I think was happening. I've also said repeatedly, if we wish to know God's ideal will, we have but to look to Christ. How did Christ feel about violence?

No. I believe it is accurate to say "Jesus felt their spirit, their motive, their attitude, their reasons for wanting to call down fire on the Samaritans was wrong." There are times, however, when having the right spirit based on the right reasons reflects the will of God. The right spirit, as you know, is a sorrowful spirit. Jesus does not delight in destroying sinners.

M: You asked, "Logic still requires an answer to the question of how could they be in the right spirit in wanting to call down fire?" The answer is, They couldn't. The time was not right for Jesus to destroy the Samaritans.

K: If it was all just a timing issue, don't you think Jesus was a little harsh with His disciples? I mean, if Jesus was going to burn them anyway, why wouldn't He tell his disciples that their cup was not full instead of saying they didn't know what spirit they were of. What spirit were they of, poor timing?

M: No, Jesus wasn't too harsh. Their reasons for wanting to call down fire are never right even if the time was right.

M: Nevertheless, I believe there were times when Jesus felt it was right to rain down fire on sinners. For example, Jesus felt the time was right to incinerate every man, woman, and child in S&G. He also felt the time was right to incinerate Nadab and Abihu. He also felt the time was right to incinerate the 250 sympathizers who lamented the destruction and death of Korah and company. I assume you disagree?

K: Well, it's kind of hard to agree or disagree when I don't believe Jesus in the past, then, in the present, nor in the future is going to set people on fire.

M:What do you think happened that the sinners named above were burned alive and died?

M: Did Elijah initiate calling down fire upon the Samaritan soldiers? Ellen wrote: "Twice Ahaziah sent a company of soldiers to intimidate the prophet, and twice the wrath of God fell upon them in judgment. {PK 208.3} What thinkest thou? Who initiated it?

K: What did the disciples believe?

M:They probably believed, like Ellen, that Jesus initiated it. But their reasons for wanting to call down fire were wholly unlike Jesus' reasons for wanting Elijah to do it. Motive matters.

Now that you've affirmed Jesus did not, while here in the flesh, withdraw His protection and permit evil to befall sinners, how does it help us understand why Jesus did it so many times in the OT?

M: Jesus told James and John, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of." I believe this means Jesus felt their spirit, their motive, their attitude, their reasons for wanting to call down fire on the Samaritans was wrong. Do you agree?

K: Oh absolutely, I didn't think there was any question to that. The question is you said it was a wrong spirit and so what would be the right spirit. Do you wish to reword your statement?

M: No. I believe it is accurate to say "Jesus felt their spirit, their motive, their attitude, their reasons for wanting to call down fire on the Samaritans was wrong." There are times, however, when having the right spirit based on the right reasons reflects the will of God. The right spirit, as you know, is a sorrowful spirit. Jesus does not delight in destroying sinners.

K: Ok, I was talking about your statement about being of the wrong spirit....

M: You asked, "Logic still requires an answer to the question of how could they be in the right spirit in wanting to call down fire?" The answer is, They couldn't. The time was not right for Jesus to destroy the Samaritans.

K: If it was all just a timing issue, don't you think Jesus was a little harsh with His disciples? I mean, if Jesus was going to burn them anyway, why wouldn't He tell his disciples that their cup was not full instead of saying they didn't know what spirit they were of. What spirit were they of, poor timing?

M: No, Jesus wasn't too harsh. Their reasons for wanting to call down fire are never right even if the time was right.

K: Let's assume you have answered it here by saying it was impossible for them to have the right spirit....

M: Nevertheless, I believe there were times when Jesus felt it was right to rain down fire on sinners. For example, Jesus felt the time was right to incinerate every man, woman, and child in S&G. He also felt the time was right to incinerate Nadab and Abihu. He also felt the time was right to incinerate the 250 sympathizers who lamented the destruction and death of Korah and company. I assume you disagree?

K: Well, it's kind of hard to agree or disagree when I don't believe Jesus in the past, then, in the present, nor in the future is going to set people on fire.

M: What do you think happened that the sinners named above were burned alive and died?

K: God withdrew His protection and the powers that be happened. Should that surprise you?

M: Did Elijah initiate calling down fire upon the Samaritan soldiers? Ellen wrote: "Twice Ahaziah sent a company of soldiers to intimidate the prophet, and twice the wrath of God fell upon them in judgment. {PK 208.3} What thinkest thou? Who initiated it?

K: What did the disciples believe?

M: They probably believed, like Ellen, that Jesus initiated it. But their reasons for wanting to call down fire were wholly unlike Jesus' reasons for wanting Elijah to do it. Motive matters.

K: ...But, by saying "motive matters", that seems to suggest that they could have the right motive. That is what I am keep on asking and have yet to receive an answer. Maybe I'm not asking it clearly, but am trying. How could the disciples have the right spirit? If as it appears to me you are hinting at, that it was impossible to have the right spirit, does that make sense that Jesus would tell them they didn't have the right spirit rather than telling them that wasn't for them to do?