I'm sorry, I must have missed where Tom said that. Something fresh in my mind is Luke 8, Luke 9, Luke 10. Now, I don't know exactly if some evil befelled them, but it does seem to indicate/imply/or otherwise conveys the meaning whether correctly or incorrectly (to me) that He withdrew.

The time and circumstances were not right for Jesus to rain down fire, so, yes, it was not possible to have the right spirit.

Jesus implied their spirit was wrong. The reasons they wanted to burn them alive were all wrong. Jesus had the right spirit about it. If the disciples had understood the time and circumstances as Jesus did it wouldn't have occurred to them to ask permission to call down fire. Elijah, however, was in harmony with the will of Jesus when he called down fire on the two bands of fifty.

Who or what is the "powers that be"?

M: Now that you've affirmed Jesus did not, while here in the flesh, withdraw His protection and permit evil to befall sinners, how does it help us understand why Jesus did it so many times in the OT?

K: I'm sorry, I must have missed where Tom said that. Something fresh in my mind is Luke 8, Luke 9, Luke 10. Now, I don't know exactly if some evil befelled them, but it does seem to indicate/imply/or otherwise conveys the meaning whether correctly or incorrectly (to me) that He withdrew.

M: Is it your belief that Tom feels the passages below portray Jesus withdrawing His protection and permitting evil to befall sinners in the same way He did in the OT?

Luke 8:37 Then the whole multitude of the country of the Gadarenes round about besought him to depart from them; for they were taken with great fear: and he went up into the ship, and returned back again.

Luke 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save [them]. And they went to another village.

Luke 10:11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

MM:Hey, come on, give me a break, two out of three ain't bad, right! Was I totally and utterly wrong for thinking you believe Jesus commanded Moses to kill sinners on account of sin-hardened Jews? Or, is there a smidgen of truth to it?

T:I've repeatedly said I think the capital punishment is similar in character to polygamy, wanting a king, divorce, etc. I've also present the father/hunter as an analogy as to what I think was happening. I've also said repeatedly, if we wish to know God's ideal will, we have but to look to Christ. How did Christ feel about violence?

MM:1. Why did Jesus permit polygamy, having a king, getting divorced, etc?

2. Was it because of the hardness of their hearts?

3. If so, did Jesus command capital punishment because of the hardness of their hearts?

4. And, is permitting something and commanding something equivalent (referring to when Jesus does it)?

5. Finally, was Moses guilty of violence when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill sinners?

M: The time and circumstances were not right for Jesus to rain down fire, so, yes, it was not possible to have the right spirit.

K: So, not possible....but....

M: Jesus implied their spirit was wrong. The reasons they wanted to burn them alive were all wrong. Jesus had the right spirit about it. If the disciples had understood the time and circumstances as Jesus did it wouldn't have occurred to them to ask permission to call down fire. Elijah, however, was in harmony with the will of Jesus when he called down fire on the two bands of fifty.

K: Again, do you see a contradiction here? First you say not possible to have a right spirit (which, by the way is contradictory in itself), then you say they could have and Elijah did have the right spirit. And it, seems to me, is even more contradictory that first you say that right spirit involves the timing and circumstances, then it has to do with motive and harmony with the will of God, but then again you say timing and circumstances. I hope you are able to see some contradictions within your own statements. Is it possible you are having a hard time defining what "wrong" spirit is? Could it be possible that the "wrong" spirit is wanting to kill anyone in the first place rather than something about when, how, by what means, or how they were feeling at the time they did it?

M: Who or what is the "powers that be"?

K: Why is that important?

M: Now that you've affirmed Jesus did not, while here in the flesh, withdraw His protection and permit evil to befall sinners, how does it help us understand why Jesus did it so many times in the OT?

K: I'm sorry, I must have missed where Tom said that. Something fresh in my mind is Luke 8, Luke 9, Luke 10. Now, I don't know exactly if some evil befelled them, but it does seem to indicate/imply/or otherwise conveys the meaning whether correctly or incorrectly (to me) that He withdrew.

M: Is it your belief that Tom feels the passages below portray Jesus withdrawing His protection and permitting evil to befall sinners in the same way He did in the OT?

Luke 8:37 Then the whole multitude of the country of the Gadarenes round about besought him to depart from them; for they were taken with great fear: and he went up into the ship, and returned back again.

Luke 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save [them]. And they went to another village.

Luke 10:11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

K: I don't think Tom commented on these passages. I listed the passages as showing withdrawal. Do you see anything in the passages as Jesus forcing Himself upon anyone or threatening them if they reject Him? Interesting to note that in chapter 10, it even references Sodom and Gomorrah. If the kingdom is nigh, then they leave, would it follow that the kingdom is no longer nigh? Do you think it is a fair comparison to Sodom and Gomorrah?

Ok, let's study what Jesus Christ lived and taught in regards to violence. How did Christ respond when His disciples wanted to use violence to protect Him? How did He respond when His disciples wanted to use violence to punish? How did Christ Himself respond to those who would violently treat Him?

With regards to your question, in the flesh Christ said, in regards to Jerusalem, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" (Luke 13:34)

Here Christ speaks of the protection He longed to offer Jerusalem, but they would not.

Because of the hardness of their hearts.


Yes.


Capital punishment existed because of the hardness of their hearts.


No.

M: I know I've asked these questions before, but I do not remember your answers.

1. Do you think the main reason Jesus commanded Moses to kill sinners was because sin-hardened Jews expected it?
2. If so, was it wrong or sinful for Jesus to command killing sinners?
3. And, was it wrong or sinful for Moses to obey Jesus' command to kill sinners?

T: No to all questions. None of this reflects my thinking.

M: Is that how you'd like to leave it? Or, would you like to summarize what you believe as to why Jesus commanded people like Moses to kill sinners? Again, I suspect you feel as though you've clearly answered this question beyond question or misunderstanding, however, the truth is I was thoroughly and completely surprised you didn't answer the first question above with a resounding, YES!!! I correctly assumed you'd answer the other two questions with, No.

5. Finally, was Moses guilty of violence when he obeyed Jesus' command to kill sinners?

T: What does "guilty of violence" mean? I should repeat that I don't think there's any fruit in this. I keep saying this, but it just goes on and on and on, like the Energizer bunny. If we're interested in understanding God's character, we should look to Jesus Christ, not Moses. Jesus Christ was the revelation of God. All that man can know of God was revealed by His life and character. We should be studying this revelation, which was given with the express purpose of revealing the Father. I think we have a fundamental disagreement regarding this point. I think you don't believe that Christ's revelation was superior or necessary. That's my impression.

Tom has commented at length on Luke 9:56. I'm surprised you haven't noticed. Please go back and read what he wrote and then let me know if you think he believes it represents Jesus withdrawing His protection, like He did in the OT, and permitting sinners to suffer and die. Thank you.

T:Ok, let's study what Jesus Christ lived and taught in regards to violence. How did Christ respond when His disciples wanted to use violence to protect Him? How did He respond when His disciples wanted to use violence to punish? How did Christ Himself respond to those who would violently treat Him?

With regards to your question, in the flesh Christ said, in regards to Jerusalem, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" (Luke 13:34)

Here Christ speaks of the protection He longed to offer Jerusalem, but they would not.

MM:Now that you've affirmed Jesus did not, while here in the flesh, withdraw His protection and permit evil to befall sinners

, how does it help us understand why Jesus did it so many times in the OT?