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Re: Why did God command capital punishment?
[Re: Tom]
#123999
03/10/10 09:25 PM
03/10/10 09:25 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding Luke 9:24, Ellen White says that having a disposition to harm those who oppose you is a wrong spirit. Now *any time* fire were to rain from heaven, this *could only be done* with the disposition to harm one with whom one was opposed. It's not possible *ever* to call fire from heaven without violating this principle, because fire would *always* harm one who was opposed to you (and you wouldn't call fire down against someone not opposed to you).
So this isn't dependent upon timing or circumstances.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command capital punishment?
[Re: Tom]
#124016
03/12/10 01:41 AM
03/12/10 01:41 AM
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OP
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Tom, thank you for the dialog.
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Re: Why did God command capital punishment?
[Re: kland]
#124017
03/12/10 01:53 AM
03/12/10 01:53 AM
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I did find this from Tom: I believe that compelling power is found only under Satan's government. I believe Christ responded correctly when He told the disciples, "You know not of what spirit you are," when they suggested He destroy the Samaritans by setting them on fire.
God is not the destroyer. Satan is the destroyer. The Lord is the restorer.
Oh and then this: This says the wrath of God came upon them. You interpret this as meaning that "Jesus initiated it." You have preset ideas as to what phrases mean, so when you come across a certain phrase, you interpret it to mean something you already think, even though the phrase itself says nothing of the sort.
The wrath of God is not His getting angry and smiting people, but His reluctant withdraw, allowing people to experience the result of their choice: He lists some texts and then this: In the above texts, the following may be noted:
1)The text mentions God’s anger, wrath or fury
2)This is explained as God’s hiding His face, delivering up those who have rejected Him, or withdrawing.
3)Bad things happen when God withdraws.
Were any of those things what you had in mind? While you are technically correct that Tom did speak about Luke 9 after I brought it up, I still don't see Tom as commenting about it as Jesus withdrawing His protection. But, if you want to assume what Tom would say about it, I would venture a wild guess that he might possibly believe Jesus was withdrawing from the Samaritans. Kland, the timing and circumstances were not right for Jesus to rain down fire on the Samaritans. The disciples wanted to call down fire for the wrong reasons. Jesus said so. I also quoted Ellen White who elaborated on how and why their spirit was wrong. There is page after page where I keep asking you over and over to explain what "right spirit" is. You seem to avoid defining it for some reason. The best I can see you explaining it is that "Jesus said so". Reminds me of the, God said, I believe it, that is all there is to it idea. Are you ok with that explanation and see no need for understanding why it is not the right spirit nor further discussion? Was the quote where you said Ellen White elaborated this one: "James and John, Christ's messengers, were greatly annoyed at the insult shown to their Lord. They were filled with indignation because He had been so rudely treated by the Samaritans whom He was honoring by His presence. They had recently been with Him on the mount of transfiguration, and had seen Him glorified by God, and honored by Moses and Elijah. This manifest dishonor on the part of the Samaritans, should not, they thought, be passed over without marked punishment. {DA 487.1}
I would fail to see that as an elaboration, but it does seem to me to make one question if wrong spirit meant what you mean it to be. It seems to me she is saying that they had been with Jesus through all these things and yet, they missed His whole character. Could others also miss His character? You seem to think calling down fire on sinners is intrinsically, inherently evil and, therefore, never right. Or, have I misunderstood you? If not, do you believe Elijah's spirit was wrong when he called down fire on the two bands of fifty? And, do you believe Jesus made a mistake when He rained down fire on them? Yes, you do understand me that I believe setting people on fire is "intrinsically, inherently evil and, therefore, never right". I also believe Jesus did not rain fire down on anyone. Fallacy of the assumed premise. 1. Explain what "right spirit" is. Jesus demonstrated the right spirit when He rained down fire on the sinners I named above. Elijah demonstrated the right spirit when he called down fire on the two bands of fifty. 2. I also believe Jesus did not rain fire down on anyone. Where did the fire come from that killed them? Scriptures please.
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Re: Why did God command capital punishment?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#124023
03/12/10 02:20 PM
03/12/10 02:20 PM
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1. Explain what "right spirit" is.
Jesus demonstrated the right spirit when He rained down fire on the sinners I named above. Elijah demonstrated the right spirit when he called down fire on the two bands of fifty.
But MM, we've already been down that road. However, does that define what right spirit is? For if right spirit is raining down fire, we are back to how could the disciples have the right spirit. Which you will say it was impossible. So what is right spirit?
2. I also believe Jesus did not rain fire down on anyone.
Where did the fire come from that killed them? Scriptures please.
Do you wish to have only scriptures for all beliefs? If so, answer number 1 with scriptures. Or answer number 2 in terms of what has been listed before such as who killed Saul. Or answer where did Cain an Able come from if the scriptures never say Adam and Eve had sex. Do you hear what I'm saying? Do you believe the ultimate capital punishment was symbolized with the scapegoat of the sanctuary service? Explore what happened there.
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Re: Why did God command capital punishment?
[Re: kland]
#124028
03/12/10 02:56 PM
03/12/10 02:56 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, thank you for the dialog. I've appreciated your dialog with kland as well. We've been through these things quite a bit, but your conversations with kland are dealing with things a bit differently, which is very helpful to me.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command capital punishment?
[Re: Tom]
#124029
03/12/10 03:01 PM
03/12/10 03:01 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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But MM, we've already been down that road. However, does that define what right spirit is? For if right spirit is raining down fire, we are back to how could the disciples have the right spirit. Which you will say it was impossible. So what is right spirit? Here's what I'm hearing MM say. The right spirit depending upon the motive, which depends upon the circumstances. The circumstances were right for Elijah to have the right motive, so he could have the right spirit, but weren't right for the disciples.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command capital punishment?
[Re: Tom]
#124030
03/12/10 07:32 PM
03/12/10 07:32 PM
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Maybe that's what I'm missing what he's trying to say. I expected a statement, but he is saying an AND condition? We could have the wrong motive and the wrong circumstances. We could have the wrong motive but the right circumstances. We could have the right motive but the wrong circumstances. We could have the right motive and the right circumstances. He's saying only the last one is the right spirit. Which would mean, as he and GC have said before, that actions aren't wrong. Something that humans would think the most heinous crime could be perfectly ok if the same thing was done with both the right motive and the right circumstances. As I had laid out about the abortion doctor, I only had the motive part. So, when using AND logic and one of the operands is always true, the result would be true for the other operand. Which means the question would then depend upon the right circumstances. Which could be determined for the Samaritans, but maybe not for the abortion doctor. Any guess what the next question will be? 
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Re: Why did God command capital punishment?
[Re: kland]
#124034
03/12/10 10:17 PM
03/12/10 10:17 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Which would mean, as he and GC have said before, that actions aren't wrong. Something that humans would think the most heinous crime could be perfectly ok if the same thing was done with both the right motive and the right circumstances. This is what I'm hearing as well.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command capital punishment?
[Re: Tom]
#124130
03/19/10 02:46 PM
03/19/10 02:46 PM
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I came across the following in the fall issue of Liberty talking about Columbus occupying Dominica. They seemed to want to "Christianize" the inhabitants. http://www.libertymagazine.org/index.php?id=1569A famous chief named Hatuey led an opposition till his capture. The conquistadores put him on a stake to burn him alive. But before lighting the fire they offered him the chance to convert—and then the offer of a cleaner death by beheading. Only by accepting the Christian faith, he was told, could he hope for heaven and an eternal life of bliss. “No,” he said, declining the offer, “I don’t want to meet any more Christians.” Some questions should come to mind as to why did they offer a "cleaner" death, why did they choose fire if he didn't convert? Were they using fire since God was going to burn them anyway? If it wasn't heaven and eternal life, what alternative did they think he would experience? Did they think their capital punishment was no different than God's? Again, the motive was right for isn't wanting to convert people a right motive? But how do we determine if the circumstances were correct for Columbus? How should he know if the circumstances were correct?
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Re: Why did God command capital punishment?
[Re: kland]
#124131
03/19/10 03:18 PM
03/19/10 03:18 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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What was the offer of being beheaded? Was it, if you are converted, we'll still kill you, but you'll be beheaded? Or you can be burned alive?
Of course, God's burning people alive is much worse than what Columbus did, because God has the power to keep people alive until they've suffered enough. In Columbus' case, the people die when they die. According to wiki, someone really skilled at it could make it take 2 hours, but God is much more skilled, and can make it last for days.
I cringe to see God described in these terms. It boggles my mind that people can think God capable of acting in such a way. I think of how God has acted in my own life, and I cannot so much as sense Him ever even having been angry.
I can understand the chief's reaction, "I don't want to meet any more Christians." Can you imagine what the final judgment would be like for him, assuming those who hold the view that God will set people alive for days? "Oh no! Not that again! How do I escape Christians and their God?!"
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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