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Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS
[Re: Tom]
#124283
03/27/10 01:48 AM
03/27/10 01:48 AM
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From Waggoner: The question, then, is, How may the righteousness that is necessary in order that one may enter that city, be obtained? To answer this question is the great work of the gospel. Let us first have an object lesson on justification or the imparting of righteousness. (Christ and His Righteousness) Waggoner goes on to explain that there can be no higher state for a man than this, which makes sense, as what can be lacking if the righteousness of God has been imparted? Sanctification is not a fundamentally different aspect, but is simply justification by faith applied throughout one's life; it's the process of a lifetime, and the process is justification (or pardon, which is one and the same thing).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS
[Re: Mountain Man]
#124297
03/27/10 02:01 PM
03/27/10 02:01 PM
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Colin, I'm struggling with the idea that "continual obedience" includes gaps, interruptions involving occasional disobedience. I strongly suspect it envisions faultless, blameless "righteousness and true holiness" and is continual, uninterrupted while believers consciously choose to abide in Jesus. Theology aside, "continual" basically means there are implicit gaps but no end, defined as "without end": That's English language - check any dictionary. "Continuous" is English's opposite to "continual", that's all... The reality of growing in grace to full maturity of the "measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" involves growing out of sinning, till we leave sinning behind. If it were uniterrupted obedience, we'd be sanctified in an instant, not just justified instantly. Theologically, therefore, perfect, continuous obedience is the end result, not the first step, linguistically in the EGW quote and truly, too, not so? Are you saying "let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus" is referring to the efficacy of justification by faith? Efficacy? Maybe, but, moreover, the reality of justification by faith! Palmdale Consensus Statement, 1976 (from memory): "We believe that...'Righteous...by...faith' in the Bible...is the experience of justification." If we are reborn at all, it is the reality of justification's regeneration: becoming a new creation cannot be part of sanctification, since sanctification is but the living of the basis reality of justification. The problem is not rejecting the truth that we are reborn, but wrongly teaching it as part of sanctification or not mentioning it at all when teaching the details of righteousness by faith! "We" - ie. church literature and training, etc, etc - focus on solely the legality of our Christ as Saviour of the world and our pardon, ie. do we truly have a Saviour, not on the reality of having the Christ as our personal Saviour, having the mind of Christ, and receiving it at & in rebirth, when we are pardoned. It is the essence of rebirth: do we understand that??? The link is never uttered, that rebirth is justification and that justification gives us power, etc. Obedience, even perfect obedience as part of salvation from sin & sinning, is at least downplayed, consequently, for where is the power for it: never actually taught in detail. This minor confusion over what in salvation makes us a new creature makes or breaks the power of salvation in our thinking: salvivic miracles keep happening PTL, but the unity of the body in understanding the power of the gospel to be made children of God (Jn 1:12 KJV) is weak at best and generally obviously in disarray. That's why I bring it up here, and wherever it's in context so I can, for we once knew it and nearly harnessed that power - 1888. It never quite got going again, though it was attempted. Remember: it was missing in Sabbath afternoon of last week's lesson!! Miracles keep happening, thank God, but the full experience of salvation still eludes us and that is what Jesus is waiting for - our awareness of his wishes - so he can fit us for heaven without seeing death, to come and fetch us. Amen.
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Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS
[Re: Colin]
#124306
03/27/10 08:16 PM
03/27/10 08:16 PM
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M: Colin, I'm struggling with the idea that "continual obedience" includes gaps, interruptions involving occasional disobedience. I strongly suspect it envisions faultless, blameless "righteousness and true holiness" and is continual, uninterrupted while believers consciously choose to abide in Jesus.
C: Theology aside, "continual" basically means there are implicit gaps but no end, defined as "without end": That's English language - check any dictionary. "Continuous" is English's opposite to "continual", that's all... Ellen spoke of Jesus' "continual obedience" in the following passage: In everything Christ sought first the kingdom of God and his righteousness; and that which he did he commands his followers to do. This example he gave to the human race that they might in his strength render to God the obedience he requires, and in the end present themselves perfect before his throne. He was one with the Father. His life was a fulfilling of the law, a continual obedience to God's commands. {RH, October 2, 1900 par. 14} Obviously you're not suggesting such "continual obedience" included occasional disobedience. And yet you seem to be saying, in the context of born-again believers, "continual obedience" includes occasional disobedience. Ellen also speaks of "continual obedience" in the context of "continuous obedience" in the following passages: The termination of one duty is to be the commencement of the next that presents itself. Then the Christian character will be manifest in a life of continuous obedience and service to Jesus Christ. {HP 201.3}
It is by continual surrender of the will, by continual obedience, that the blessing of justification is retained. {1SM 397.1}
When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. {DA 668.3}
The power of the grace of God is manifested when He leads men away from their own thoughts and their own desires, and makes them willing to die to self. He leads them to believe on Christ and to trust in Him. He will raise them from spiritual death to spiritual life and to immortality, and will seal them as His forever, because of their continual obedience to His commands. {BCL 56.6} I hear you saying such "obedience" includes occasional disobedience. Again, I'm having trouble making sense of it. C: The reality of growing in grace to full maturity of the "measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" involves growing out of sinning, till we leave sinning behind. If it were uniterrupted obedience, we'd be sanctified in an instant, not just justified instantly. Theologically, therefore, perfect, continuous obedience is the end result, not the first step, linguistically in the EGW quote and truly, too, not so? It sounds like you're saying sanctification is a lifelong process of gradually outgrowing sinful habits. Are you suggesting that we are reborn and justified in a sinful state, that the "new creature" is a sinful condition, and that sanctification is the process of gradually becoming less and less sinful until we finally cease sinning? M: Are you saying "let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus" is referring to the efficacy of justification by faith?
C: Efficacy? Maybe, but, moreover, the reality of justification by faith! Palmdale Consensus Statement, 1976 (from memory): "We believe that...'Righteous...by...faith' in the Bible...is the experience of justification." If we are reborn at all, it is the reality of justification's regeneration: becoming a new creation cannot be part of sanctification, since sanctification is but the living of the basis reality of justification. The problem is not rejecting the truth that we are reborn, but wrongly teaching it as part of sanctification or not mentioning it at all when teaching the details of righteousness by faith!
"We" - ie. church literature and training, etc, etc - focus on solely the legality of our Christ as Saviour of the world and our pardon, ie. do we truly have a Saviour, not on the reality of having the Christ as our personal Saviour, having the mind of Christ, and receiving it at & in rebirth, when we are pardoned. It is the essence of rebirth: do we understand that??? The link is never uttered, that rebirth is justification and that justification gives us power, etc. Obedience, even perfect obedience as part of salvation from sin & sinning, is at least downplayed, consequently, for where is the power for it: never actually taught in detail.
This minor confusion over what in salvation makes us a new creature makes or breaks the power of salvation in our thinking: salvivic miracles keep happening PTL, but the unity of the body in understanding the power of the gospel to be made children of God (Jn 1:12 KJV) is weak at best and generally obviously in disarray.
That's why I bring it up here, and wherever it's in context so I can, for we once knew it and nearly harnessed that power - 1888. It never quite got going again, though it was attempted. Remember: it was missing in Sabbath afternoon of last week's lesson!! Miracles keep happening, thank God, but the full experience of salvation still eludes us and that is what Jesus is waiting for - our awareness of his wishes - so he can fit us for heaven without seeing death, to come and fetch us. Amen. You wrote, "If we are reborn at all, it is the reality of justification's regeneration: becoming a new creation cannot be part of sanctification, since sanctification is but the living of the basis reality of justification." I hear you saying we are reborn and justified with our sinful habits, and then we begin the process of gradually outgrowing our sinful habits. However, Ellen wrote: The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}
God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2} People are born again dead to sin, self, and Satan. They are reborn with all the fruits of the Spirit, all the righteous attributes of God's character - not one is missing. God implants them at rebirth. Sanctification, therefore, is the process of gradually maturing in the implanted fruits of the Spirit, cultivating the implanted attributes of God's character. "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}
And even then the work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity. {HP 186.6} Sanctification is an advance from one stage of perfection to another - not from one stage of imperfection to a lesser stage of imperfection until they cease being imperfect. While abiding in Jesus born-again believers grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit from "grace to grace", from "faith to faith", and from "glory to glory" - not from greater sins to lesser sins. Eternity isn't long enough to exhaust our ability to mature more and more. Do you see what I mean?
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