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Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash"
[Re: JCS]
#124780
04/16/10 03:58 PM
04/16/10 03:58 PM
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OP
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Colorado, USA
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Tis was the one key verse being refered to. (there are others) John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made The Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. Therefore God was in the beginning. Since God was in the beginning and all things were made by him there is no such thing as before the beginning. God did not create before the beginning because God was in the beginning. God's existence outside of time can not be referanced with time. The beginning marks the beginning of time. You can not measure a quantity of something if there is no measurable portion of it to measure. God created time. To say something existed before the beginning would be a fallacy. It would demote "the beginning" to "the second beginning" of which is not a beginning at all making the book of Genesis a lie. If something was created independent of time it would not even have a beginning point until time was created. This is why John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word" instead of "before the beginning was the Word." If you believe the earth and water existed independent of time, it opens up a new can of worms. I could attempt to justify it by speculating that it was remnaint material from a separate universe or that for some reason it was created frozen outside any temporal flow. My first question is, what would justify believing such a thing if it isn't spelled out as foundational truth and isn't even scientificly necessary? My second question is, if either of these ideas were true, would it really change the statement of "all things being created in the week of creation" from truth to falsehood? The passage of time in our visible universe is soully measured within it's own time-space. If something beyond this universe appeared within it, that moment effectively marks the beginning of the foreign object's existence in this universe. It seems very foolish to me that we are arguing over this point unless you think there was a temporal beginning before the week of creation (when time had measure). If this is what you believe, I can not agree with you by any means.
Last edited by JCS; 04/16/10 04:03 PM.
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Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash"
[Re: JCS]
#124781
04/16/10 04:18 PM
04/16/10 04:18 PM
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SDA
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The people of Israel had made their choice. Pointing to Jesus they had said, "Not this man, but Barabbas." Barabbas, the robber and murderer, was the representative of Satan. Christ was the representative of God. Christ had been rejected; Barabbas had been chosen. Barabbas they were to have. In making this choice they accepted him who from the beginning was a liar and a murderer. Satan was their leader. As a nation they would act out his dictation. His works they would do. His rule they must endure. That people who chose Barabbas in the place of Christ were to feel the cruelty of Barabbas as long as time should last. {DA 738.5} This speaks of Satan, who from the beginning was a liar and murderer, represented by Barabbas. What does "beginning" mean? That prayer of Christ for His enemies embraced the world. It took in every sinner that had lived or should live, from the beginning of the world to the end of time. Upon all rests the guilt of crucifying the Son of God. To all, forgiveness is freely offered. "Whosoever will" may have peace with God, and inherit eternal life. {DA 745.1} What does "end of time" mean in the above quote? In the final execution of the judgment it will be seen that no cause for sin exists. When the Judge of all the earth shall demand of Satan, "Why hast thou rebelled against Me, and robbed Me of the subjects of My kingdom?" the originator of evil can render no excuse. Every mouth will be stopped, and all the hosts of rebellion will be speechless. . . . The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe. . . . Never will evil again be manifest. Says the Word of God, "Affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. . . . A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them. {FLB 71.3} What does "in the beginning" mean in the above? "Behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Who is "the beginning and the end" here? Did He have a beginning? Will He end? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
Last edited by Green Cochoa; 04/16/10 04:23 PM. Reason: Accidentally clicked Submit instead of Preview...wasn't ready yet!
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash"
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#124783
04/16/10 04:43 PM
04/16/10 04:43 PM
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OP
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It was a nice try, really. Genesis 1 clearly refers to the beginning of all things. DA 738, DA 745, and FLB 71 do not. (which is a "no duh") The last quote coincides with my own quote. If something existed independent of time it would not even have a beginning point until time was created. This is why John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word" instead of "before the beginning was the Word." I altered this quote because God is because he is. He was not created.
Last edited by JCS; 04/16/10 04:46 PM.
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Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash"
[Re: JCS]
#124785
04/16/10 04:53 PM
04/16/10 04:53 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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You didn't answer my questions.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash"
[Re: JCS]
#124786
04/16/10 05:10 PM
04/16/10 05:10 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Colorado, USA
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Looking back, I can in fact use your quotes to illustrate my point regarding pre beginnings. In making this choice they accepted him who from the beginning was a liar and a murderer. If someone claimed that Barabbas was a liar and a murderer before he existed their claim would demote this quote to a lie. That prayer of Christ for His enemies embraced the world. It took in every sinner that had lived or should live, from the beginning of the world to the end of time. If someone stated that Christ's prayer took in sinners before the beginning of the world it would demote this quote to a lie. The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe. If someone claimed that the witnessing of the nature of sin before the beginning would have brought fear to the angels, this would devalidate the temporal structure of this quote. "Behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." If someone wanted to change this quote to "before the beginning" it would completely alter the verse's meaning. In fact, to support the preexistant Earth idea, this verse would by necessity, have to say "before the beginning" in order that it not conflict with the proposed theory.
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Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash"
[Re: JCS]
#124788
04/16/10 05:44 PM
04/16/10 05:44 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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I will concede that the English language is messy enough (in regard to complex subjects like temporal physics) that a statement can have multiple meanings (regarding points in time).
Consider the angels who were created independently of the visible universe. From their perspective in regard to a sequence of events, they existed "before" our universe was created. If one were to use our passage of time to measure how long the angels existed before "the beginning" it wouldn't work. Only when measuring time from an external perspective could time periods be measured earlier.
Since the creation story is in temporal referance to this universe alone, it can not state of things elsewhere.
Last edited by JCS; 04/16/10 05:47 PM.
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Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash"
[Re: JCS]
#124789
04/16/10 05:56 PM
04/16/10 05:56 PM
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OP
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If one were to try to support the pre beginnig idea using this it would just revert back to what I quoted before: If you believe the earth and water existed independent of time, it opens up a new can of worms. I could attempt to justify it by speculating that it was remnaint material from a separate universe or that for some reason it was created frozen outside any temporal flow. My first question is, what would justify believing such a thing if it isn't spelled out as foundational truth and isn't even scientificly necessary?
My second question is, if either of these ideas were true, would it really change the statement of "all things being created in the week of creation" from truth to falsehood? The passage of time in our visible universe is soully measured within it's own time-space. If something beyond this universe appeared within it, that moment effectively marks the beginning of the foreign object's existence in this universe. Ellen mentions of God's plan for salvation and the existence of the angels before the beginning. If the Earth did too why would she intentually hide this information from us? Maybe she didn't say such a thing because it's a crafty lie developed by Satan himself to destroy the validity of the Sabbath.
Last edited by JCS; 04/16/10 05:57 PM.
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Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash"
[Re: JCS]
#124790
04/16/10 05:57 PM
04/16/10 05:57 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
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Looking back, I can in fact use your quotes to illustrate my point regarding pre beginnings. In making this choice they accepted him who from the beginning was a liar and a murderer. If someone claimed that Barabbas was a liar and a murderer before he existed their claim would demote this quote to a lie. There is no fault in the quote. It is the interpretation. 1) It is not talking about Barabbas. 2) If it were talking about Barabbas, his "beginning" is when? Conception? Birth? The point in time when he learns to lie? You see, this interpretation has problems. I gave you a different interpretation in my earlier post, and was asking the question about that one, not this. I want to know how you answer the time question when applied to Satan, not Barabbas. Ellen White has said Barabbas represented Satan, and from there on, made statements in regard to the latter. That prayer of Christ for His enemies embraced the world. It took in every sinner that had lived or should live, from the beginning of the world to the end of time. If someone stated that Christ's prayer took in sinners before the beginning of the world it would demote this quote to a lie. Apparently, you have not noticed some real gems from the Bible and Mrs. White that would help you to better understand this statement. (See Rev. 13:8) The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe. If someone claimed that the witnessing of the nature of sin before the beginning would have brought fear to the angels, this would devalidate the temporal structure of this quote. You are not understanding the quote, for whatever reason. Mrs. White is saying that when Lucifer first sinned, while in heaven, before sin ever came to this earth, before Lucifer was ever cast out of Heaven, before the grand Creation Week of this world had ever begun...at THAT POINT, the universe would not have understood had God wiped out Lucifer. When God does finally do so, they will. "Behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." If someone wanted to change this quote to "before the beginning" it would completely alter the verse's meaning. In fact, to support the preexistant Earth idea, this verse would by necessity, have to say "before the beginning" in order that it not conflict with the proposed theory. I gave no explanation. I only asked a question. You are still not answering it. However, you do seem to understand that it might conflict with your theory. What will you do if you find that the Bible does conflict with your theory? I hope you will not opt to re-interpret the Bible as "allegorical" or "fiction" as those who believe in long-age geology/evolution of species have done with "creation." Let the Bible be true, and all else be falsehood, wherever the twain conflict. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash"
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#124791
04/16/10 06:04 PM
04/16/10 06:04 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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JCS,
It's a simple question. What does "beginning" mean in this statement by Mrs. White: "In making this choice they accepted him who from the beginning was a liar and a murderer."
If the "beginning" is the moment of Creation, that same creation which spawned our world and all that is in it, then you must necessarily accept that God created Satan as a sinner. He was a "liar" "from the beginning."
Blaming this on messy English? I think you need to rethink some of your interpretations. Like it or not, we are dealing with some Hebrew and Greek here in addition to English. (Gen. 1:1 & John 1:1)
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
Last edited by Green Cochoa; 04/16/10 06:06 PM.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: A New Creationist Cosmological Model "The First Flash"
[Re: JCS]
#124793
04/16/10 06:59 PM
04/16/10 06:59 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 470
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This conflict of thought originated with the debate between "creatio ex nihilo" and "ex nihilo nihil fit." (the debate of as to whether all things came from nothing or that all things have always been) This wiki link touches on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_nihiloThe pre existant Earth idea is highly reminiscent of the pagan primordial chaos beliefs that fit within the glove of "ex nihilo nihil fit."
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