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Re: No condemnation
#12546
02/08/05 05:47 PM
02/08/05 05:47 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The condemnation comes now. It comes by unbelief. quote:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (John 3:16-21)
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Re: No condemnation
#12547
02/11/05 10:28 PM
02/11/05 10:28 PM
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SDA
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Didn’t Jones and Waggoner teach that all of humanity, righteous and unrighteous, had been justified? They taught everyone living was pardoned and not under condemnation didn’t they, but that only those who believed this by faith were truly born again?
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Re: No condemnation
#12548
02/12/05 07:04 AM
02/12/05 07:04 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Didn’t Jones and Waggoner teach that all of humanity, righteous and unrighteous, had been justified? They taught everyone living was pardoned and not under condemnation didn’t they, but that only those who believed this by faith were truly born again?
They (especially Waggoner) taught that Christ's death was effective for the entire human race in that everyone, both righteous and unrighteous, live by virtue of His death. Waggoner's teachings are reflected by Ellen G. White in many places, most notably perhaps DA 660 where she uses almost exactly the same words Waggoner used when discussing the same topic.
quote:
Our Lord has said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. . . . For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." John 6:53-55. This is true of our physical nature. To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life. The bread we eat is the purchase of His broken body. The water we drink is bought by His spilled blood. Never one, saint or sinner, eats his daily food, but he is nourished by the body and the blood of Christ. The cross of Calvary is stamped on every loaf. It is reflected in every water spring. (DA 660)
They didn't use the language you are using, Mark, so it's difficult for me to answer your question since I may not be understanding what your language means to you and I would have to guess what it would mean to them. To use Waggoner's own language, he taught:
quote:
God has wrought out salvation for every man, and has given it to him; but the majority spurn it, and throw it away. The Judgment will reveal the fact that full and complete salvation was given to every man, and that the lost have deliberately thrown away their birthright possession. Thus every mouth will be stopped. (from The Glad Tidings)
Does this answer your questions Mark?
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Re: No condemnation
#12549
02/12/05 02:00 PM
02/12/05 02:00 PM
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SDA
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Yes, that quote by Waggoner is a good sample of his teaching on this. If every man’s salvation has been provided as Waggoner and the scriptures say, the condemnation in their refusal of the gift is two fold or two staged. First unbelief results in their trampling on the sacrifice and blood of Christ so that they are condemned in affronting their redeemer and creator, and second, without the robe of Christ’s righteousness, the individual is under the condemnation of the law as he fulfills his fleshly lusts which are condemned by the law. The condemnation is not merely a ‘destiny’. We mustn’t attribute condemnation and death merely to the natural results of sin. Condemnation and death are the direct results of unbelief that removes the wedding garment from the guilty and exposes him to the condemnation of the law. The power of sin is derived from the law according to scripture. It is not inherent in itself. quote:
The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. I Cor 15:56
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Re: No condemnation
#12550
02/12/05 02:48 PM
02/12/05 02:48 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Well said, indeed, Mark. Happy Sabbath!
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Re: No condemnation
#12551
02/13/05 06:17 AM
02/13/05 06:17 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The law is transcript of God's character. It describes how things are meant to be. God made us to function in harmony with it's principles, which is to say, in harmony with Him. The great principle of the law is love. God is love, and to love is to be in harmony with God and in harmony with His law. To love is to place the interests of another above your own. It was on this very point that the Great Controversy arose -- Satan's accusation is that God puts His own interests above the interests of His creatures. Christ came to prove Satan's accusations were false. The principle of sin is the principle of self-exaltation, a principle which divorces oneself from God. This principle leads to death. Here is the explanation: quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them....The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. (DA 107)
To say that sin derives its power from the law is simple to say that it derives its power from God's character, which is indeed the case. We see this in the quote above. The light of the glory of God, which is God's character, gives life to the righteous, but destroys the wicked. This is similar in thought to what Isa. 33:14, 15 presents:
quote:
"Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?" He who walks righteously and speaks what is right.
Sin does destroy, because it places one out of harmony with God, who alone is life. Sin, in placing one out of harmony with God, results in God's presence being a consuming fire to the one given over to it; such are consumbed by the glory of God:
quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)
There's seems to be an epidemic of those referring to my posts using the phrase "natuaral result." To the best of my knowledge, I have never used that phrase. I appeal to Mark, Mike and Rosangela in particular to please not use this phrase in responding to my posts. Please use the words and ideas I'm actually presenting, or if you want to use a phrase of your own, such as "natural result" please explain how that phrase relates to my own.
Thank you.
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Re: No condemnation
#12552
02/13/05 09:35 PM
02/13/05 09:35 PM
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SDA
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, the reason "natural law" comes up so often is the ideas you are advocating imply it. Sin is not implosive. The are basically two reasons why we die the second death:
1. We do not have access to the tree of life.
2. God destroys us with fire and brimstone.
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Re: No condemnation
#12553
02/14/05 02:38 AM
02/14/05 02:38 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Condemnation and death are the direct results of unbelief that removes the wedding garment from the guilty and exposes him to the condemnation of the law. The power of sin is derived from the law according to scripture. It is not inherent in itself.
Mark: Condemnation and death are the direct results of unbelief that removes the wedding garment from the guilty and exposes him.
John: This is true, absolutely true; unbelief does that.
Mark: and exposes him to the condemnation of the law.
John: This has bought the deception of sin, with which sin uses the law unlawfully to condemn. The law may not be used for such purposes. Whosoever uses the law in that way is sinning. He is not a doer of the law but a judge of the law.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Mark: The power of sin is derived from the law according to scripture. It is not inherent in itself.
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
John: You are right Mark. Sin does not have this power inherent in itself. It needs the law to be able to do it. But sin is not just that it should use the law justly. It uses the law unlawfully and therefore brings condemnation. It covers itself with deception so that the sinner thinks it is the righteousness of the law or God that condemns him.
God knows the deception of sin, and is doing all to save us from it. Therefore it is by faith that we are saved from unbelief and receive his righteousness and his eye salve, so we are no longer naked or deceived.
Sin is author of condemnation and death using the law or word of God.
Christ is the author and finisher of faith and life living the word of God.
Shalom
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Re: No condemnation
#12554
02/14/05 09:48 PM
02/14/05 09:48 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The reason I object to the use of the word "natural" is that it may have the connotation of "apart from God" or "not supernatural." The word is a vague word, and I don't know what you or the others mean when you use it, which is why I have repeatedly asked you not to use the word in conjunction with things I have written. If you do use the word, at least be kind enough to define what you mean by it. I have purposely avoided using it, intentionally and on purpose even.
The reason sin causes death is that is places the wicked so out of harmony with God that His very presence is a consuming fire to them. The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, slays the wicked.
A problem with your interpretation is that it leads to the absurd idea that fire and brimstone give life to the righteous. Another is that it leads to God's character being a symbol of fire and brimstone, which anyone should be able to see is backwards.
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Re: No condemnation
#12555
02/16/05 01:06 AM
02/16/05 01:06 AM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The expression “the glory of …” is used repeatedly throughout the Bible, and it means a variety of things. Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP, however, does it refer to the “glory of God” as the fire and brimstone that will be rained down upon the unsaved at the end of the millennium. Notice the following passages and my personal comments:
Exodus
24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD [was] like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
NOTE: the glory of God was “like” a devouring fire.
2 Chronicles
7:1 Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.
7:2 And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD'S house.
7:3 And when all the children of Israel saw how the fire came down, and the glory of the LORD upon the house, they bowed themselves with their faces to the ground upon the pavement, and worshipped, and praised the LORD, [saying], For [he is] good; for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
NOTE: here the fire from heaven and the glory of the LORD are two entirely separate things.
2 Thessalonians
1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
NOTE: the flaming fire mentioned here is not part of the glory of God.
Acts
2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
NOTE: the cloven tongues were “like” fire.
Hebrews
12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.
NOTE: the fire mentioned here says nothing about the glory of God.
SC 17
It is no arbitrary decree on the part of God that excludes the wicked from heaven; they are shut out by their own unfitness for its companionship. The glory of God would be to them a consuming fire. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them.
NOTE: “would be to them a consuming fire” is another way of saying “like” a consuming fire. The use of the article “a” instead of “the” implies likeness.
GC 543
Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them… Like the waters of the Flood the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable.
NOTE: here she compares the fires of the great day to the waters of the Flood, which implies a literal fire.
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