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Re: Why do we sin?
[Re: Tom]
#125466
05/19/10 03:22 PM
05/19/10 03:22 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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p:Isn't it more difficult to choose to serve Christ than to choose to serve sin?
The "Hound of Heaven" poem addresses this. To choose to serve sin you have to choose to resist the love of God drawing one to repentance throughout one's life. That's not so easy.
R:The question is, Which is more difficult: to resist God's drawing or to resist Satan's alluring? This is a question one could ask, but so are the questions I've been asking. For example, which path is the difficult path? I've been hearing you say the narrow path is the difficult one. I don't believe this is in harmony with inspiration. Also Jesus tells us His yoke is easy and His burden light. I believe this is good news! I'm not hearing this being said, but rather how difficult it is to serve Christ. What I pointed out earlier in this thread is that God respects our power of choice, but Satan doesn't; God plays fair, but Satan plays dirty. This fact, in my opinion, makes more people choose to resist God than choose to resist Satan. Where sin abounds, grace does much more abound. It's God's job to counteract the efforts of the enemy, so that it's a fair fight, and a person can make a free and fair decisions. God is very good at His job.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why do we sin?
[Re: Tom]
#125470
05/19/10 06:06 PM
05/19/10 06:06 PM
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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I've been hearing you say the narrow path is the difficult one. I don't believe this is in harmony with inspiration. In terms of pain, the broad path is the difficult one. But, in terms of effort, in my opinion the narrow path is the difficult one. Resisting God brings pain, but I don't think it requires more effort than resisting Satan. If there are two people trying to convince you to do opposite things, and one of them reasons with you, but the other one is threatening you with a gun and torturing you, who is more difficult for you to resist to? Ellen White does speak of an easy religion which is not that of the narrow path: We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion. But Jesus says, "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." {NL 38.1} The desire for an easy religion that requires no striving, no self-denial, no divorce from the follies of the world, has made the doctrine of faith, and faith only, a popular doctrine. {Mar 232.2} Let no one talk of an easy religion. Let no one imagine that the path to Heaven is smooth and pleasant, that there is nothing to do but to believe. We are to be workers together with God; and through diligent and painstaking effort alone, can the conditions of the promises be met. The words of inspiration declare that "faith without works is dead, being alone." We are exhorted to "fight the good fight of faith." We are to wrestle with unseen foes, to labor, to watch, to strive to enter in at the strait gate; for many will be content with simple seeking, and will fail of an entrance. "Wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat;" but "strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." {ST, July 20, 1888 par. 8} The religion of many is altogether too comfortable, too easy. They seem to think that if they copy the life of their neighbors, they will be safe. I tell you, we are not safe in copying any one but Jesus. {RH, July 7, 1891 par. 6} Also Jesus tells us His yoke is easy and His burden light. I believe this is good news! I'm not hearing this being said, but rather how difficult it is to serve Christ. I agree that following Christ is easy, is sweet. "The longer I serve Him, the sweeter it grows." The difficulty doesn't come at all from serving Christ, but from the machinations of the enemy.
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Re: Why do we sin?
[Re: Rosangela]
#125471
05/19/10 06:29 PM
05/19/10 06:29 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Here's the SOP statement I've been referencing: Yet do not therefore conclude that the upward path is the hard and the downward road the easy way. All along the road that leads to death there are pains and penalties, there are sorrows and disappointments, there are warnings not to go on. God's love has made it hard for the heedless and headstrong to destroy themselves. (MB 138; emphasis mine) Please note the underlined sentence. This is the point I've been making. The narrow path is not the difficult one because God's love makes it difficult for those who would be lost to destroy themselves.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why do we sin?
[Re: Tom]
#125473
05/19/10 06:39 PM
05/19/10 06:39 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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I agree with that perspective. But I understand it's not the only one we have to approach the subject.
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Re: Why do we sin?
[Re: Tom]
#125474
05/19/10 07:04 PM
05/19/10 07:04 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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arnold:Actually, I believe that *after already knowing Christ and having Him as one's personal Savior, and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit*, one is ALREADY saved. In that condition, falling into temptation is impossible. John addressed this. He said, "If anyone sin, he has an advocate with the father." He was speaking to those who are converted. Another way of seeing that your claim above is false is to consider Jesus Christ. He was always in the condition you described, but it wasn't impossible for Him to fall into temptation, right? 1 John 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. While Christ is in you, according to John, you CANNOT sin, Satan has no power over you. As long as you are filled with the Spirit, you will always walk as Jesus walked. And how did Jesus walk? Always in the Spirit. In that condition, He wasn't going to fall into temptation. However, it is possible for Christians to sin. He just has to separate from God first. But humanity combined with divinity does not sin. No, my claim was not false. My claim was a summary of the plan of redemption.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Why do we sin?
[Re: Rosangela]
#125475
05/19/10 07:12 PM
05/19/10 07:12 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
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I agree with that perspective. But I understand it's not the only one we have to approach the subject. Ditto.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Why do we sin?
[Re: asygo]
#125476
05/19/10 07:21 PM
05/19/10 07:21 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Arnold, according to the logic of your argument, Christ could not have fallen into temptation, right? If you disagree with this conclusion, please explain to me, given the assumptions you're making, how this could have happened. Also, to make clear what we're discussing, here's what you said: Actually, I believe that *after already knowing Christ and having Him as one's personal Savior, and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit*, one is ALREADY saved. In that condition, falling into temptation is impossible. My statement was in regard to a converted person, any converted person. I was qualifying a converted person as one who knows Christ, has Him as a personal Savior, and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, which is true of any converted person. Do you agree with this? Or do you think it's possible to be converted without one or more of these qualifying statements applying? If you agree, then based on your statement, you look to be saying that a converted person cannot sin. Is this really what you mean to say? When you say, "in that condition" do you mean something other than the condition of being converted" (because being converted is the context of my statement that you were responding to).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why do we sin?
[Re: Tom]
#125477
05/19/10 07:29 PM
05/19/10 07:29 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Ok, so both Arnold and Rosangela are agreeing with the perspective that the narrow path is not the difficult one? The agreement is in respect to this point?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why do we sin?
[Re: Tom]
#125478
05/19/10 07:46 PM
05/19/10 07:46 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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Arnold, according to the logic of your argument, Christ could not have fallen into temptation, right? If you disagree with this conclusion, please explain to me, given the assumptions you're making, how this could have happened. Jesus could have fallen into temptation, but only if He decided to stop depending on the Father and the Holy Spirit. But while dependent and submitted to God, man cannot sin, including Jesus. Also, to make clear what we're discussing, here's what you said: Actually, I believe that *after already knowing Christ and having Him as one's personal Savior, and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit*, one is ALREADY saved. In that condition, falling into temptation is impossible. My statement was in regard to a converted person, any converted person. I was qualifying a converted person as one who knows Christ, has Him as a personal Savior, and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, which is true of any converted person. Do you agree with this? Or do you think it's possible to be converted without one or more of these qualifying statements applying? I agree that every converted person "knows Christ, has Him as a personal Savior, and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit." If one of these aspects is missing, he is not converted. If you agree, then based on your statement, you look to be saying that a converted person cannot sin. Is this really what you mean to say? Yes. Whoever is born of God (converted) does not sin. Whoever walks in the Spirit (converted) will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. When you say, "in that condition" do you mean something other than the condition of being converted" (because being converted is the context of my statement that you were responding to). I mean the condition of "knowing Christ and having Him as one's personal Savior, and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit" - converted. And going back to the original context, that condition is not something one must achieve in order to be saved, but a description of one who is already saved.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Why do we sin?
[Re: Tom]
#125479
05/19/10 07:47 PM
05/19/10 07:47 PM
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SDA Active Member 2023
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
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Ok, so both Arnold and Rosangela are agreeing with the perspective that the narrow path is not the difficult one? The agreement is in respect to this point? I'll speak for myself: The narrow path is not more difficult, but it requires more effort. A lot more.
By God's grace, Arnold
There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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