Rosangela,

The core issue here is, of course, if Pauls sentence in Romans give you free leave to read "seal" where Moses writes "sign". Both words occur in Romans in the same sentence, but is the sentence constructed in such a way that Paul is in effect saying to us "seal and sign are always interchangeable in the bible, irrespective of who wrote the particular book or when it was written". Would you or Azenilto at least try to prove that this is in fact what Paul is saying here?

Extrapolating a grammatical point from one sentence to make the foundation for one of the SDA unique points of doctrine, can you at least admit that you understand why I find this a very weak foundation, even a sandy beach?

Vaster,

No, seal and sign are not always interchangeable in the Bible. Not even the same word has always the same meaning in the Bible. "Seal" in Rev. 7:2 represents one thing, in Rev. 8:1 another thing, and in Rev. 20:3, still another thing. So the key is looking at the context.
The word "sign," either in Hebrew or in Greek, is "a distinguishing mark." The Sabbath was a distinguishing mark of the children of God, showing that they belonged to the Lord. The same was true of the circumcision. The same was true of the blood on the doorposts on the occasion of the Exodus.
The New Testament also speaks of a distinguishing mark of the children of God in connection with the Holy Spirit.
And in Revelation it is also clear that the seal is a distinguishing mark of the children of God in the last great crisis. It is also clear that it is opposed to the mark of the beast, which will be the distinguishing mark of the enemies of God at that time.
What is very questionable, which Azenilto correctly points out, is the argument that, since the New Testament says that the seal of God is the Holy Spirit, the seal mentioned in Revelation can be nothing else. To begin with, the New Testament doesn't say that the Holy Spirit is the seal, but that the believers were sealed with the Spirit, or in the Spírit. Maybe the Spirit is not the seal itself, but a sealing agent; or maybe both the manifestations of the Spirit are a seal and He is a sealing agent.
Going back to the seal of God in Revelation. I think the clue for us to understand what the seal of God is in Revelation is the message of the third angel:

"Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, 'If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.' Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus."

The ones who are mentioned in contrast with them that receive the mark of the beast are "those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." It's on this basis that we can conclude that the mark of the beast is related to the keeping of the commandments of God. And, since we know that almost the totality of Christendom keeps Sunday, it's probable this will be the point of truth especially controverted. And when we add the fact that God calls the Sabbath a sign between Him and His people, things begin to fall into place.

AgreedEven though a sign and a seal both have a distinguishing purpose, it seems they are thus in quite different ways. As the following example shows, the sabbath is a sign which is maintained by both parties taking part in it together. Exodus 31:16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever;

A seal on the other hand, while being a distinguishing mark, is so through the authority of the one who does the sealing. Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Both thus distinguish the people of God but in fundamentally different ways. The sign through the partaking of the covenant and its promises and stipulations, while the seal is entirely founded on the authority and power on the part who bestows it. This is further support for the sabbath being a sign of the people of God while the Holy Spirit being the seal of the people of God. Incidentally exactly what the bible teaches. Unfortunately removing the base of interpretation for one verse of apocalyptic prophecy. I agree that there may be several different seals, the revelation itself uses the imagery of the seven seals to one document. So the question arises, which seals does the bible speak about. Having established that sign does not mean seal, there is no biblical foundation (at least any that has been presented here, which I am convinced it would have been had it existed) for identifying the sabbath as a seal. The Holy Spirit is mentioned as a seal of the righteous. Ephesians 1:13 has been mentioned, but Ephesians 4:30 is even more clear and to the point. 2 Timothy chapter 2 suggests that the gospel may be a seal when it says:

14Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his,"[a] and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

Setting the solid foundation firm against false doctrine, and identifying as its seal two phrases from the law and the prophets, ie the bible as Paul knew it.
The two seals thus seem to be the Holy Spirit and His collected teaching throughout the ages.
First we may want to widen the definitions a little. In Johns first letter, we can read a clear definition of what he meant by Gods commands:

1 john 3:21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

and

1 john 5: 1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

We thus see that identifying "commandments" with the verses of exodus chapter 20 is in fact limiting the verses in revelation. Or to hear it in Jesus own words, in Matthew chapters 5-7.

Lastly, and digressing from my own point made above, concerning the widespread view that sunday is the christian sabbath, I would ask, which of the 10 commandments is widely kept in our world today?
No Gods before the Lord? Was worship given to things or beings other than God ever as widespread as it is today? Even those who claim to have no god worship at some altar, of commerce or communism or something else.
Such worship of course takes its form from idols.
Misusing the name of God? All who claim to be christian but show no fruit of the Spirit are daily misusing Gods name, dragging it in the dirt.
The sabbath commandment..
Giving honor to ones parents; maybe this is the best kept of the 10, though rapidly decreasing where family structures disappear I image.
Murder, is part of daily life in all to large parts of our world while adultery barely seem regarded as immoral any longer.
Stealing and gossiping lies about others are huge problems in society, now recognized to be measurable on GDP scale.
Finally the last of the ten, coveting what we do not have. Capitalism would cease to work tomorrow if all or even a qualified majority of the world population began to honor this command.

Good point Vaster. I don't have much time to elaborate, but through my studies of the sanctuary, the epods that the high priest wore on his shoulders where made of Onyx(H7718) which means "to blanch".

Anyway, what was interesting was that the names of the 12 tribes of the COI was engraved on the two ephods. Ex 28:11; 39:6,14 And it was to be a "SIGNET"(H2368) meaning "a signature ring" like a kings wears and seal up any laws or important papers with it.

H2368(Signet 9x, Seal 5x) comes from the root word H2856 "SEAL"(18x) which means "to close up, esp. to seal".

From these, my understanding is that we are the Fathers "SIGNET" that Jesus Christ wears on both shoulders. Or we are the Kings ring that seals up all things on earth and in heaven.

Like in these cases?

Matt 16: 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

Matt 18 15"If your brother sins against you,[b] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

John 20:21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Azenilto,

I take it that you dont bother reading what anyone else writes in the threads you start?

Oh, I do read. . . But I don't think anybody gainsaid the points I made. By the way, there is another forum, similar to this, and there are also good comments in it. I think it would be worthwhile to reproduce here what a brother said:

The seal of God "on the Law of God" is found in the Sabbath. The seal of God on the believer is found in Ephesian 1. If you think you are going to retain the Eph 1 seal of God at the time of the Loud Cry by telling the Holy Spirit to not talk to you about God's Commandments - then guess again. Matt 16 shows us that there never was such a thing as a time when it was "ok" to tell the Holy Spirit of truth "not to talk to you about sin" or not to "convict the World of Sin".

Thus all the non-Sabbath keeping saints today who truly are SEALED by the holy Spirit - will one day be "Keeping the Commandments of God" (as Rev 12 and 14 point out) when NSL issues surface and they are called out - in the Loud Cry.

For as Paul says in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Christ said "my sheep hear My voice" -- if they really are sealed by the Holy Spirit - then at the time God calls them "with a loud cry" -- they will answer.

in Christ,

Bob

My reaction:

Hi Bob

Very good points. I would say that the Sabbath is the external "sign of God", while the Holy Spirit is the "internal sign of God".

The promise of the New Convenant is that God would write His laws on the hearts and minds of those who accept the Gospel (Heb. 8:6-10 and 10:16). Nowhere in these texts, which are the most important to deal with the transfer of the Old to the New Covenant, it is minimally hinted that in the process of God writing His laws on these hearts and minds, He a) leaves the Sabbath commandment out of the picture; b) maintains the Sabbath commandment, but transfering the sanctity of the 7th to the 1st day of the week; OR, c) leaves this question of the day of rest as a vague, voluntary or variable religious practice, which can be adjusted to the believer's convenience or necessities (or that of his/her employer).

Best regards

Now, what was said above,

2 Timothy chapter 2 suggests that the gospel may be a seal when it says:

14Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his,"[a] and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

Setting the solid foundation firm against false doctrine, and identifying as its seal two phrases from the law and the prophets, ie the bible as Paul knew it.
The two seals thus seem to be the Holy Spirit and His collected teaching throughout the ages.

Yes, this confirms what I said: all is part of the same experience—the gospel motivating a Christian to keep God’s commands, which ARE NOT LIMITED to believing in Christ, but also to keep his commandments.

Jesus Himself said: "If you love Me, keep My commandments" which include, not exclude, those belonging to the law that God writes on the minds and hearts of those who accept the Gospel, as is the promise of the New Covenant (Heb. 8:6-10).

I think John Calvin presented a wonderful view of how that works as he comments Heb. 8:10:

In vain then does God proclaim his Law by the voice of man, unless he writes it by his Spirit on our hearts, that is, unless he forms and prepares us for obedience. . . . . Thus it comes that the Law is ruinous and fatal to us as long as it remains written only on tables of stone, as Paul also teaches us. (2 Corinthians 3:3.) In short, we then only obediently embrace what God commands, when by his Spirit he changes and corrects the natural pravity of our hearts; otherwise he finds nothing in us but corrupt affections and a heart wholly given up to evil. The declaration indeed is clear, that a new covenant is made according to which God engraves his laws on our hearts, for otherwise it would be in vain and of no effect.

Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom44.xiv.ii.html

Regarding your second article, does the sabbath command require you to work on the sunday? If it does, many adventists may be breaking it even now in this way. And if it does not, then what is the problem if the economy shuts down one day of the week?