Hi John. I've been pondering your comments. Before I answer, can you tell me more about your view of how sin works. You tend to give it anthropomorphic qualities, but I'm having trouble understanding the actual mechanisms or processes you're describing. Maybe an example or two of how it works would help. How about describing Eve's sinful thoughts and actions when she fell and the interplay between sin and the law in that instance, and/or Christ's victory in the wilderness and/or some other example.

Mike,
I do not know how your points fit in this topic here. Perhaps the topic of "Can sin be destroyed by destroying sinners" would be more appropriate.

Hi Mark,
You have used the same anthropomorphic qualities in stating that it is the law which condemns. And we know that the law is not a person. I understand you using the term 'law' in the form of the "letter" written. Therefore I have stated that it cannot condemn, as it is not a person, and is inanimate. Second it was never given by God for the purpose of condemning, but to the contrary it was ordained to life.

However, with sin it is the opposite. Sin cannot exist on paper. Sin is not inanimate. It can exist only in living FMBs (free moral beings). It can only exist while it is living. Sin whenever it is present, is living in the sinner, and as such is the master which pays the wages, and accuses and condemns. That is the Law of sin and death. Apart from a FMB it cannot exist.

Sin in that sense is the perverted judgment/righteousness of the sinner. It is that perverted judgement/righteousness of the sinner that holds him in bondage and slavery. It is that which brings forth the sinful deeds (transgressions). It has its life in the very spirit of the sinner. This is the place where God gave life.

The spirit of a FMB is constituted in the faculties of the will and faith. The power of the will is faith. When faith is broken by doubt, "condemnation and death are the direct results of unbelief (doubt) that removes the wedding garment from the Doubter (guilty) and exposes him."

What that means is that the 'glory of God' (God's righteousness) has been lost, and the sinner is going about establishing his own righteousness which being of 'doubt' is by it's very nature accusing, condemning. Sin lives in doubt (unbelief), and dies as soon as faith is restored. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Before Eve could ever consider eating of the tree, she had to break faith and doubt God. It would be impossible to do so while she believed God. So doubt courted the accusation against God and brought forth the action. Having lost God's glory which was his/hers by faith, one is now exposed to his own doubt. So clothing must be found. The next step is to begin forming one's own righteousness based on 'doubt'; this is where doubt and sin join hands to use the 'word' to justify self and villain God.

In terms of Christ's or anyone's victory it is always by faith. He did not allow for one moment anything that would cast doubt on his Father's character or person. His righteousness/judgment was of God. He would not court doubt. Therefore Satan could gain no ground. The fact that temptations were/are reinforced through the lower senses is immaterial to faith but material to doubt. Because faith has God for its source and authority, and doubt needs another input, so the lower senses are listened to.

There is no way to come out of this except by faith; to receive God's glory again.

The law and the word of God are the same, agreed? The word, we are told is like a two edged sword in the hands of a seasoned and skilled warrior.

quote:

---

4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Hebrews

---

The law detects and defines sin in individuals. Sin is not only selfishness and unbelief which are the root sins, sin is any trangression of the law. Sin does not use the law in any way, lawful or unlawful. It is the law that defines and condemns sin wherever found. So the law, the word, the character of God, all the same things; this is the schoolmaster that shows us our need of Christ.

If we are at one with Christ, there is no condemnation from the ever-speaking law. There is no condemnation because the character of divinity is ours by faith.

It's appropriate to characterize condemnation as originating from the law as though it speaks like a person because unlike sin which has no independent existence, the law is the essence of the Person of God.

The ancient English jurists, referring to the common law, noted that the law always speaks.

Did Eve sin when she ate it or when she decided to eat it? We sin with our minds first. The actions manifest what is in the mind. If that's the case, the decision was rooted in unbelief even though she was deceived.

Yes, sin does begin in mind, but if Eve or Adam had set the fruit aside, instead of eating it, then they would not have been guilty of sinning against the commandment of God. God said, Do not eat it. He didn't say, Do not think about eating it. Otherwise, how far back did Eve sin? I've heard people say she sinned the moment she wandered from Adam's side, because the angels warned her not to separate from him.

There are sins that do not lead unto death. Could it be that wondering about the prohibitions of God does not constitute a sin that leads unto death? In other words, is it a sin to reason with God? Is it a sign of doubt or disbelief to inquire, Why?

Mark: For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

John: Yes indeed it is, but that is for the purpose of salvation, not condemnation.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Mark: Sin does not use the law in any way, lawful or unlawful.

John: Sin certainly uses the Law. The following scripture is definite on that:

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Please note that God specifically did not give the law for the purpose of condemnation, but he ordained it to life. It is sin that uses the law to condemn us, and it does so unlawfully because God ordained it not to be used for that purpose. This in itself reveals the wickedness of sin.

Mark: It's appropriate to characterize condemnation as originating from the law as though it speaks like a person because unlike sin which has no independent existence, the law is the essence of the Person of God.

John: It is precisely for this reason that it is impossible for the law to condemn anyone, because it is the essence of the Person of God. God does not condemn anyone. Please consider what room there is for condemnation in the character and glory of God as revealed to Moses, and in the fruits of God's spirit.

Exo 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty;

Please note:

Why is it that there is now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus?
Because he has made us free from the ,law of sin and death.
How did he do this?
By condemning us?
No, not at all! But by condemning "sin" in the flesh. By him doing that, he set us free from the "condemnation of sin". Please note, that Paul says that the law could not do that.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,condemned sin in the flesh

This is wonderful!