Of course the seal and the mark themselves are an internal (intellectual, spiritual) setting into the truth or into error, and this cannot be seen. But obviously there must be some external evidence or choice which will give the beast (a human persecuting power) a basis for it to persecute.


It may be in order to recapitulate some things here. Long before the 613 were given to Moses, in fact before the entrance of sin, God gave moral rules of conduct to humankind. These rules of conduct, given to Adam, were obviously the 2 commandments of supreme love to God (disobedience to Whom would bring death) and love to neighbor, but they included also the Sabbath commandment (a day which God blessed and hallowed – set aside for holy purposes – for humankind; see Gen. 2:3, Mark 2:27). Just after the Fall, of course God had to unfold the 2 into the 10 in order to define sin more clearly to sinful human beings. Thus, Cain knew that anger/hate/murder was a sin (Gen. 4:7), Abimelech knew that adultery was a sin (Gen. 20:9), and the same is true of Joseph (Gen. 39:9), and other examples could be cited. All of this before Sinai and the 613. So, whatever happened to the other 603 of these commandments (although I disagree with your conclusion that all of them have become obsolete), we know that the 10 existed long before them, and will continue to exist as long as the earth lasts.
And, as to the 2 being new commandments, they are not new at all – they were given to Adam, but of course they existed long before him, for they both were transgressed by Lucifer (John 8:44). Christ was just expressing that the second one – love to neighbors – acquired a new meaning through His sacrifice.


I’m glad you are not saying John gives a definition of his own to the words “law” and “commandment,” otherwise he would be contradicting what James, Jesus’ brother, says in his letter:

“8 If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well.
9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.
11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," said also, "Do not kill." If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty.”


Most Christians, in any part of the world, do not live as Christians.


Ok, but we were discussing about my previous statement: “And, since we know that almost the totality of Christendom keeps Sunday, it's probable this will be the point of truth especially controverted.” My point was that people don’t consider themselves as transgressors of 9 of the commandments, and if confronted about the fourth, what they say is that it was either abolished or changed. This is what most Christians think, the general idea which prevails. But their attention, and the attention of everybody else in the world, will be called to this commandment if some kind of persecution arises against those who observe the Sabbath.

Like Daniel was persecuted for refusing to change his prayer habit and his friends for refusing to worship the statue. Both wore a sign of their covenant with God, one through positive action and one through refusing negative action..."A whole bunch" does not equal "all of them" IMO. In this case, it is the sizeable part which relate to the temple service and the levitical service. "New" only occurs here because Jesus says He is giving them/us a new commandment. Maybe Jesus (and/or John who is the one quoting Jesus) is wrong?

Still, this history does not conflict with the context of first century Palestine/Jerusalem. John did not write from Adams context, or Abrahams context, or Moses context, but from the context of his own time. Azenilto is making some progress in showing that Christendom does not keep Sunday. Why make a big spectacle of something then that you barely care about now?

Sure, and if you define who the beast power is, it becomes easier to define what the sign will probably be.


Agreed.


No. John understood correctly what Christ meant:

“Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new commandment, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining” (1 John 2:7, 8).

What is new in the commandment is its meaning.


What do you think people care enough about now for it to become the seal of God or the mark of the beast in the future?

So, who is it? Can we presently know?And its meaning is the most important part of it, right? With a new meaning, you are basically saying that the commandment has been redefined. I dont think there is any one thing that makes the cut for all people. Some care very much about making right political wrongs, so much that they put their lives on the line. Other people invest their lives in helping other people. Some invest their lives in hedonism. Most I would think invest their lives in the lives of their children.

The similarities between the little horn of Daniel 7 and the sea beast of Revelation 13 leave no doubt that both symbolize the same earthly power (see attachment below).*

The little horn:
- would arise on the head of the fourth beast (the Roman Empire), suggesting it would be a part of the Roman Empire (v. 7-8, 24).
- it would be clearly a religio-political power; it would be “different” from the other horns (v. 24)
- it would put down 3 kings (v. 24)
- it would speak words against the Most High and wear out the saints of the Most High (v. 25)
- it would think to change the times and the law (v. 25)
- the saints would be given into his hand for a time, two times and half a time (v. 25)

Many Protestant students of prophecy interpret the little horn to represent an end-time antichrist. However, this leaves a gap of some fifteen-hundred-plus years between the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 and the final events of earth's history. But there were no long historical gaps between any of the nations represented by the previous beasts. Each one immediately replaced its predecessor. Similarly, the papacy immediately replaced the Roman Empire; no long, historical gap occurred between its rise and the empire's fall.
The papacy grew out of Rome and was a part of the empire just as the little horn grew out of the head of the 4th beast and was a part of that beast. When Rome fell, the papacy stepped into the political void.
The papacy is the only religio-political power that arose after the barbarian tribes overthrew the Western Roman Empire. The papacy also fulfills all the specifications of the little horn that are recorded in verses 24 and 25. Thus, it is very reasonable to understand the little horn as a symbol of the papacy. And Adventists have historically identified the first beast of Rev. 13 as the papacy on the basis of the similarity between the sea beast and the little horn of Daniel 7.


It's not a new meaning in the sense of being something completely different from the previous meaning. It's a new meaning in terms of renewal and deepening, not of redefinition.


I don't think any of these are likely to bring a religious persecution upon those who invest in them.

* The table below is from Marvin Moore's book Could It Really Happen?, p. 33.

I came late [again] but thought of something I learned in government class over 40 years ago.
A seal os the mark of authority for the one giving instruction/orders [also known as commandments] and in order for it to be authentic, it needs to contain 3 things, the name of the authority [who], the title of the individual [what] and the dominion over which they rule.[where]
Only the fourth commandment of the Decalogue.
First who: the LORD thy God
second what: made
third: heaven and earth,
The president has his seal, you see it every time he speaks on the Television.
The seal of authority, notice SEAL, what is being talked about here. There is no doubt in my mind that the Sabbath is the seal of God. It bears all the essential requirements of being one.

Actually, I think the most crucial law is the 10th - thou shalt not covet. It is the one against making self our guide. And, it is the only one that has no outward manifestation - it all happens in the thoughts and feelings.

While the 1st commandment tells us to abstain from other gods, the 10th commandment shows us which god we use to break the 1st.

Good point Arnold.