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Re: No condemnation
#12586
03/02/05 11:19 AM
03/02/05 11:19 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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John,
My concept of the law is according to the manner of the Bible and of Ellen White. James says clearly that we will be judged by the law of liberty, the royal law, love your neighbor as yourself, which is nothing but the ten commandments. The law is the standard of judgment, and it either condemns or acquits us.
I could provide dozens of Ellen White statements saying that the law condemns us if we are in sin. This is an essential point of the gospel. If there is no condemnation, there is no need for salvation. Only when the sinner is convicted of his sins will he seek Christ for pardon and salvation.
"The law condemns, but it cannot pardon the transgressor. The penitent, believing soul does not look to the law for justification, but to Christ, the atoning sacrifice, who is able to impart his righteousness to the sinner, and make his efforts acceptable before God. When we take Christ for our Saviour, we are enabled to become obedient children, keeping all the commandments of God. ... 'For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.' Christ is the end, or purpose, of the law. The law condemns the sinner, and thus drives him to Christ for righteousness. ... First, man is to see the righteousness of the law in condemning sin, then he is to behold the righteousness of God in the merits of Christ, providing pardon for sin." (ST, August 5, 1889)
"Christ did not come to excuse sin, nor to justify a sinner while he continued to transgress that law for which the Son of God was to give his life to vindicate and exalt. Had it been possible for the law to be repealed, Christ would have had no need to come to our earth, and to die, the just for the unjust. God could have taken the sinner back into favor by annulling the law. But this could not be. The law holds the transgressor in bondage, but the obedient are free. The law cannot cleanse from sin, it condemns the sinner. The sinner may stand justified before God only through repentance toward him, and faith in the merits of Jesus Christ. (ST, July 18, 1878)
"Paul waged no war against the commandments of God because of the sharp work they had done in detecting his sin; but, altho he was condemned to death by the sentence of the law, he exclaims, 'The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good'" (ST, April 30, 1896).
"But while Christ saves the sinner, He does not do away with the law which condemns the sinner....The law shows us our sins, as a mirror shows us that our face is not clean. The mirror has no power to cleanse the face; that is not its office. So it is with the law. It points out our defects, and condemns us, but it has no power to save us. We must come to Christ for pardon." (RC 55)
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Re: No condemnation
#12587
03/02/05 01:34 PM
03/02/05 01:34 PM
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Charter Member
Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
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Mike wrote.
I am more inclined to believe deception, not doubt, is what caused Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. She reasoned, based on deception, that eating the fruit would make her more like Jesus.
Unquote.
I agree! Satan has tempted Eve with something she has not, which exited her very much. It is the knowledge of good and evil, which this knowledge she would become like God. Adam was probably also tempted with this idea for surely Eve has told him, but I think his love towards Eve is greater than his love towards God that made him willing to take the risk of transgression (which is death).
But is the knowledge of transgression not a knowledge of what is evil and is not the knowledge of keeping God’s instruction a knowledge of what is good?
In His love
James S.
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Re: No condemnation
#12588
03/02/05 01:43 PM
03/02/05 01:43 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Rosangela:
My concept of the law is according to the manner of the Bible and of Ellen White. James says clearly that we will be judged by the law of liberty, the royal law, love your neighbor as yourself, which is nothing but the ten commandments. The law is the standard of judgment, and it either condemns or acquits us.
I could provide dozens of Ellen White statements saying that the law condemns us if we are in sin. This is an essential point of the gospel. If there is no condemnation, there is no need for salvation. Only when the sinner is convicted of his sins will he seek Christ for pardon and salvation.
Rosangela: James says clearly that we will be judged by the law of liberty, the royal law, love your neighbor as yourself, which is nothing but the ten commandments.
John: That means, loving your neighbor as yourself, right. James interprets what he means: Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Rosangela: The law is the standard of judgment, and it either condemns or acquits us.
John: If you apply that standard, how will you love your neighbor? Won’t you rather be out there either condemning or acquitting your neighbor. If that is what the law does, then that is what you must do, if you are a doer of the law.
Rosangela: This is an essential point of the gospel. If there is no condemnation, there is no need for salvation.
John: Condemnation from what; salvation from what? You are saved from that which condemns you. If you see the law as condemning you, then you need to be saved from the law. If you see God as condemning you, then you need to be saved from God.
Rosangela: Only when the sinner is convicted of his sins will he seek Christ for pardon and salvation.
John: I agree with you there. But, to be ‘convicted of sin’ is vastly different than being ‘condemned for having sinned’. The first works repentance and salvation. The second works wrath. Why should he seek Christ for pardon and salvation if Christ (according to your understanding) is condemning him?
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Re: No condemnation
#12589
03/03/05 04:36 AM
03/03/05 04:36 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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John, I see that you chose not to comment on the Ellen White's texts I quoted above. quote:
John: If you apply that standard, how will you love your neighbor? Won’t you rather be out there either condemning or acquitting your neighbor. If that is what the law does, then that is what you must do, if you are a doer of the law.
No, of course not. A doer of the law is supposed to obey the law, not to apply it. It is judges who apply the law and make decisions:
James 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brethren. He that speaks evil against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
12 There is one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you that you judge your neighbor?
quote:
John: Condemnation from what; salvation from what? You are saved from that which condemns you. If you see the law as condemning you, then you need to be saved from the law. If you see God as condemning you, then you need to be saved from God.
No, I must be saved from the factor which leads to my condemnation, that is, sin. If there is no sin, there is no longer any condemnation.
quote:
John: Why should he seek Christ for pardon and salvation if Christ (according to your understanding) is condemning him?
Because Christ is both Judge and Saviour. He is both Justice and Mercy. When the sinner accepts His righteousness and it is imputed to him, the law no longer condemns him, for then, instead of his sins, God sees in him Christ’s perfect obedience.
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Re: No condemnation
#12590
03/02/05 11:18 PM
03/02/05 11:18 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
My point is that when the 144,000 receive the outpouring of the latter rain, the light that heaven pours forth at that time will be the means of arraigning the world before the judgement seat of Christ. Those who accept the flood of grace and truth that God will pour on the earth will be blessed by it, but those who do not will be judged and condemned by it.
I agree with this. This is well put too. I would hasten to add that the beginning of this light which is to fill the earth with glory God already began to give to us in 1888:
quote:
An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren {E.J.} Waggoner and {A.T.} Jones.
By exciting that opposition Satan succeeded in shutting away from our people, in a great measure, the special power of the Holy Spirit that God longed to impart to them. The enemy prevented them from obtaining that efficiency which might have been theirs in carrying the truth to the world, as the apostles proclaimed it after the day of Pentecost. The light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory was resisted, and by the action of our own brethren has been in a great degree kept away from the world. (1SM 234, 5)
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Re: No condemnation
#12591
03/02/05 11:27 PM
03/02/05 11:27 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I think John is correct in what he is saying, but the concept he is trying to communicate is a difficult one to get across. The difficulty is due, I think, to the fact that it requires thinking about things in a way we are not used to. Much of Scripture and EGW can be taken in very different ways, depending on one's perspective. For example, what the phrases "the condemnation of the law" or "Christ paid the penalty for sin" can mean very different things depending on one's perspective. John's point (he can correct me if I misrepresent him, but I think I understand him correctly) is that sin itself is what brings condemnation. Christ said in John 5 that the Father gave all judgment to the Son, and in John 8 and again in John 12 Christ says that He does not or will not condemn. (The KJV says "judge," but the meaning is the same as "condemn." The Portuguese version -- at least one of them -- translates it as "condemn") So if God/Jesus does not condemn us, how are we condemned? The answer Jesus gives in John 12 is that condemnation comes by either believing in or refusing to believe His words. His words are spirit and life for those who accept them, and death for those who refuse to believe. This is the way that the law condemns. EGW puts is this way: quote:
This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.
Again in DA 107:
quote:
To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them....The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.
Note that the light of God's character (His glory) gives life to the righteous while destroying the wicked. The wicked actually destroy themselves by placing themselves so out of harmony with God that His presence becomes to them a consuming fire. This is the same thing as saying the law condemns them.
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Re: No condemnation
#12592
03/03/05 12:14 AM
03/03/05 12:14 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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John: If you apply the standard that the law condemns or acquits, how will you love your neighbor? Won’t you rather be out there either condemning or acquitting your neighbor. If that is what the law does, then that is what you must do, if you are a doer of the law.
Rosangela: No, of course not. A doer of the law is supposed to obey the law, not to apply it. It is judges who apply the law and make decisions:
John: So now we are back to realizing that the law does not condemn, but it is left to the judge to apply the solution according to the nature of his righteousness. I am glad you agree that the fulfillment of the law is love and not condemnation. Therefore it is the transgressor of the law that condemns. The question then is whether the Judges righteousness is a righteousness that fulfils the law or not; a righteousness unto life or a righteousness unto death.
James 4:11 Do not speak evil against one another, brethren. He that speaks evil against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
Thank you for quoting that scripture from James, which I have brought forth earlier. That is the point: when the law is used to judge, it is an evil thing, for the law was never given for that purpose. In fact that is what sin is about. It uses the law to judge and condemn.
12 There is one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you that you judge your neighbor?
Yes indeed, and he has revealed what his judgment is and how he deals with sin. He also has revealed how those that refuse his judgment will be judged in the end; namely by their own judgment.
Rosangela: No, I must be saved from the factor which leads to my condemnation, that is, sin. If there is no sin, there is no longer any condemnation.
John: Sin is not the factor that leads to condemnation, but is the factor that turns your judgment to condemnation.
Rosangela: Because Christ is both Judge and Saviour. He is both Justice and Mercy. When the sinner accepts His righteousness and it is imputed to him, the law no longer condemns him, for then, instead of his sins, God sees in him Christ’s perfect obedience.
John: Christ’s judgment is Salvation. His justice is mercy. When a sinner accepts his righteousness and becomes a partaker of it, he is set free from the righteousness which condemns. He is no longer condemned by sinful judgment (because it has been condemned) which uses the law to condemn him. So that sin no longer reigns in his mortal body and he can now behold the glory of God.
God never needed to change his perspective.
P.S. Tom is much better at placing the EW writings in perspective.
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Re: No condemnation
#12593
03/03/05 11:28 AM
03/03/05 11:28 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Tom and John,
Let me understand your position better. Do you believe that, besides being saved from the power of sin, the sinner must be saved from the guilt of sin? If yes, why? If not, why not?
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Re: No condemnation
#12594
03/03/05 01:58 PM
03/03/05 01:58 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Those are not two separate things. To be delivered from the power of sin is to be delivered from the guilt and condemnation of sin. For the power of sin is not the temptation, but the guilt and condemnation. This is what Paul means by the strength of sin being the law.
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
It is the fear of death (guilt and condemnation) by which Satan/sin holds us in bondage to sin. This is how sin deceives us and uses the law unlawfully. Through our judgment/righteousness.
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Re: No condemnation
#12595
03/03/05 02:02 PM
03/03/05 02:02 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Consider how John places the fulfillment of the law and God’s righteousness.
1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jo 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
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