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Re: No condemnation
#12576
02/24/05 02:44 AM
02/24/05 02:44 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Mike: I am more inclined to believe deception, not doubt, is what caused Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. She reasoned, based on deception, that eating the fruit would make her more like Jesus
John: There is no question that deception was put forth, but it was based on casting doubt on God and his word, so to buy the deception is to doubt God.
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Re: No condemnation
#12577
02/24/05 03:46 AM
02/24/05 03:46 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Mark said, quote:
You say sin uses the law unlawfully. If we just take an example of a human law, let's say the Canadian Criminal Code's prohibition against 1st degree murder, if I break that law, I'm condemned and punished under that statute. How would it be an unlawful use of the Code for my action to bring that result? The purpose of that law is to address or rather, redress the very action that I've committed isn't it?
John: According to the Canadian Criminal Code you would be lawful in using it to condemn and punish. But that is what it was made and purposed for. The purpose of that Canadian law is to address the very action that was committed. No, it does not and cannot redress the action committed.
However with God’s law, that was and is not the purpose. God’s Law was ordained to life; it is just, holy, and good. It has and had no condemning or punishing aspect. It has an instructing (schoolmaster) position. It advises (teaches) us about good and warns of evil, and tells us the results. God’s law, at all times, tells us what we should/shouldn’t be doing/thinking NOW; it does not deal with what we have done. What to do about what we have done is left to the discretion of the nature of the righteousness of the judge. (Here you must separate civic law from God’s law).
It is in this perspective that you will see Christ’s judgment always different from that of the judges/lawyers of this world.
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Re: No condemnation
#12578
02/24/05 04:24 AM
02/24/05 04:24 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Mark: So your position John is that the law does not condemn, it is sin that condemns? Hmmm..., the Apostle talks of two laws - the law of the Spirit of life and the law of sin and death. Isn't he referring to two purposes of the same law? It is another way of saying the law is a double edged sword - it brings life to the penitent and death to the unrepentant. Its workings were most clearly seen in the character of Christ - it reassured the humble - those who were seeking God in truth, and it condemned the proud - those who refused to follow truth.
No, I could not say that the law being the sword, that Christ makes us ride the one edge as opposed to the other.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,condemned sin in the flesh
The “Law of the Spirit of Life” is one thing,
The “Law of sin and death” is another thing.
And “The Law” is a third.
The “Law of the Spirit of Life” is Christ’s righteousness, The “Law of sin and death” is our fallen righteousness. And “The Law” is the written code.
Those who are in Christ have by faith received of Christ’s righteousness which set them free from their own righteousness. This, the Law could not do, because “Sin in us” (our righteousness) would use it deceptively/unlawfully to deal with actions past rather than present thought. God’s law, at all times, tells us what we should/shouldn’t be doing/thinking NOW; it does not deal with what we have done. What to do about what we have done is left to the discretion of the nature of the righteousness of the judge. The concept of righteousness and grace is the spirit of thought and what motivates judgment; not the accumulated past deeds.
As long as man is under the Law of sin and death (his own righteousness), the resulting judgment is condemnation, because he judges always the past deeds, and his righteousness is retributive. God’s grace and righteousness is the power of God unto salvation as revealed in the fruits of the spirit.
Who do I want for my Judge?
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Re: No condemnation
#12579
02/24/05 08:47 AM
02/24/05 08:47 AM
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SDA
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Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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Correct me if I'm not understanding you John, but you're saying that the law does not condemn sin? But we agree the law is the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ? Isn't the Bible clear that the law does condemn sin?
Rosangela provided the analogy of a mirror - the law shows us where we stand before God. It confirms that we need a Savior, but it has no power in itself to save. If it had no power to condemn, where would our need be for Christ?
Yet David speaking prophetically says in Psalms 19 that the law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. If we identify the law as the incarnate Word, then it does indeed save. If we identify it as the standard of righteousness only and do not include the power of the living Word that originates only in Christ, then the letter of the law only shows our need of Christ.
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Re: No condemnation
#12580
02/26/05 02:48 PM
02/26/05 02:48 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
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One of the most stirring prophecies of the NT is found in Jude who quotes Encoh: quote:
1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Jude
According to this text, God, along with ten thousands of the saints will convict and condemn the godless of their evil deeds in the judgement. The judgement referred to here is that of the 144,000. These are the ‘tens thousands of His saints’ The apocalypse indicates that at the time Christ takes the scroll and begins to unseal the seals, opening the books of the living, at about the same time the number of the 144,000 is completed. See chapters 4 to 7 of Revelation. In chapter 10 the 144,000 are also represented by John who is told to rise and prophesy again. My point is that when the 144,000 receive the outpouring of the latter rain, the light that heaven pours forth at that time will be the means of arraigning the world before the judgement seat of Christ. Those who accept the flood of grace and truth that God will pour on the earth will be blessed by it, but those who do not will be judged and condemned by it.
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Re: No condemnation
#12581
02/27/05 01:15 AM
02/27/05 01:15 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Mark: So I think this is important - does sin condemn or does the law condemn? You make a good point that Christ puts some distance between himself and the condemnation that comes from sinning. Clearly he came to save, not to condemn. It would be a mistake though to conclude that the condemnation of sin does not relate directly to the character of God. His personality defines good and by default defines evil and thereby condemns it. Whatever is out of harmony with His character is evil. God is out to save, not condemn, but as His character is the standard of good it therefore also defines and condemns evil.
Mark: You make a good point that Christ puts some distance between himself and the condemnation that comes from sinning.
John: He put all the distance in the universe to it.
Mark: Clearly he came to save, not to condemn.
John: Amen, Hallelujah!
Mark: It would be a mistake though to conclude that the condemnation of sin does not relate directly to the character of God.
John: It would be a mistake to conclude that he and his character does not condemn sin.
Mark: His personality defines good and by default defines evil and thereby condemns it. Whatever is out of harmony with His character is evil. God is out to save, not condemn, but as His character is the standard of good it therefore also defines and condemns evil.
John: True. However God’s condemnation of sin, and sin’s condemnation of the sinner are worlds apart. The two are of entirely different and opposing nature. You will note that in all the discussion so far on this topic as far as I can remember the talk was always about the condemnation of the sinner and the “just retribution”.
God’s condemnation of sin sets man free from sin and condemnation. Sin’s condemnation of the sinner is on the other hand destructive and enslaving unto death.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin,condemned sin in the flesh
So, God’s condemnation of sin is salvation. Sin’s condemnation of the sinner is death.
When man fell under the dominion of sin, his righteousness changed. As we see today, the lawyers/Judges using the laws to pervert justice, so it is with sin regarding heavenly issues. Each one of us is a Judge. God made us so. And the workings of sin in us, establishes a righteousness/judgment that uses and requires retribution without mercy. This is the power of sin using the law. Man is the author of his own sentence. God’s judgment on the other hand condemns that very type of justice and righteousness and use of the law. He offers to us his righteousness, which is life and peace. Let this mind be in you, which is also in Christ Jesus. He came to destroy the works of the devil. There is now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus.
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Re: No condemnation
#12582
02/27/05 01:18 AM
02/27/05 01:18 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Mark: Correct me if I'm not understanding you John, but you're saying that the law does not condemn sin? But we agree the law is the schoolmaster that brings us to Christ? Isn't the Bible clear that the law does condemn sin?
John: What I said is that the law does not condemn anyone! And the scripture tells us that it was not able to condemn sin, in that it was weak through the flesh. To condemn sin as opposed to condemn the sinner are two very different things
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Re: No condemnation
#12583
02/27/05 01:32 AM
02/27/05 01:32 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Mark: Yet David speaking prophetically says in Psalms 19 that the law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. If we identify the law as the incarnate Word, then it does indeed save. If we identify it as the standard of righteousness only and do not include the power of the living Word that originates only in Christ, then the letter of the law only shows our need of Christ.
John: Wonderful, isn't it
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Re: No condemnation
#12584
02/27/05 12:54 PM
02/27/05 12:54 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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John,
James says:
"9 If you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, 'Do not commit adultery,' also said, 'Do not murder.' Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty."
If the law will judge us, it will either condemn or acquit us.
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Re: No condemnation
#12585
03/02/05 03:00 AM
03/02/05 03:00 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Rosangela: If the law will judge us, it will either condemn or acquit us.
Your concept of the law is after the manner of the kingdom of this world; which is of fault-finding and condemnation. As you see from your above statement all that this kind of law and righteousness can do is condemn or fail to do so. Such is not God's way.
The context and the scripture you quoted tell a very different story:
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jam 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced* of the law as transgressors.
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jam 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
First of all, James is talking about what is well: The royal law; the law of liberty: Love your neighbor as yourself. But, if you do not do that, then you commit sin and are under the law “convinced”* as transgressors. The law is admonishing/teaching here, not condemning. Then he warns further about sin and being a transgressor. Guilty, here means being a transgressor.
Then James goes on to bring our attention to the fact that we wish to be judged by the Law of Liberty/Freedom. Now this Law is revealed in the next verse to be of an important virtue; namely “mercy”. Therefore he wants us to be partakers of that spirit of mercy, because we will reap our own judgment. As you judge you will be judged.
So, if there will be condemnation, it will come from the judgment of the sinner, who shows no mercy. God is merciful and he does not change. The sinner is merciless and therefore needs to be saved from his sin (mercilessness) to mercy, so that he may rejoice in the freedom from condemnation. This condemnation comes from his righteousness/sin (mercilessness).
He who loves his neighbor, shows mercy.
He who has respect of persons lacks mercy and love.
“Go ye and learn what this meaneth: I will have mercy and not sacrifice.”
There is now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus.
*elegchō
el-eng'-kho
Of uncertain affinity; to confute, admonish: - convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove.
This is teaching us. There is no purpose of condemning us here. For the commandment was ordained to life.
Shalom
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