John, I'm not sure I understood what you said, but it seems you are speaking about the sinner feeling guilty. I am speaking about God considering the sinner guilty. Do you believe God considers people guilty for their sins or not?

Rosangela: Let me understand your position better. Do you believe that, besides being saved from the power of sin, the sinner must be saved from the guilt of sin? If yes, why? If not, why not?

John: This question seemed clear. Power of sin = sin’s power; guilt of sin = sin’s guilt. The two are one and the same, and the source is the same. It is the way sin uses the law to pervert judgment/righteousness in the sinner.

Rosangela: John, I'm not sure I understood what you said, but it seems you are speaking about the sinner feeling guilty.

John: What does guilt and guilty mean to you? This is unclear in context of your first question. I am speaking about the sinner’s judgment/righteousness that sin employs which condemns the sinner instead of sin. So it is not feelings but the nature of judgment/righteousness that it is about.

Rosangela: I am speaking about God considering the sinner guilty. Do you believe God considers people guilty for their sins or not?

John: God sees us as we are at all times; he never make-believes. He also never needs, nor desires to find us guilty. He knows the judgment of sin (sin’s judgment). He knows the sinner is condemned by the deception of sin. That is why he wants to save us from sin and its condemnation. Please note what God does do:

Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty;

Nowhere do you see God having a need to find or hold someone guilty. But you see him: forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin. In order to forgive, he obviously knows of it, but he is merciful and gracious and just so he cannot partake of the condemnation of sin. However he can by no means clear the guilty. He wants to clear them but he cannot, because they hold on to the righteousness/judgment of sin which condemns them and holds them in bondage. They need to receive the grace of God’s forgiveness into their hearts before they can receive his forgiveness. The same goes for the grace of God’s mercy, the grace of God’s longsuffering, the grace of God’s goodness and truth.

In other words: Sin does something to the sinner, it changes his spirit, thought, heart, judgment, righteousness. It establishes doubt, accusation, condemnation and death as justice. It does not do anything to God. God remains faithful and true, full of grace and mercy. So God wants to save us from sin and all that goes with it to his glory and grace.

In order to do that sin must be condemned, so that we can be justified – made partaker’s of God’s glory.

John,

The subject, in fact, is very simple:
The power of sin and the guilt of sin are two very distinct things, although related to each other.
The power of sin is just what Paul describes in Romans 7: “For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me” (vv. 19,20; see also Romans 6). That sinners must be saved from the power of sin is obvious.

The guilt of sin, on the other hand, is what is described in Jer. 2:22: “’For though you wash yourself with lye, and use much soap, yet your iniquity is marked before Me,’ says the Lord GOD”. Or, as the RSV puts it: “’Though you wash yourself with lye and use much soap, the stain of your guilt is still before me,’ says the Lord GOD”.
Those who sin (disobey the law) are guilty before God, and those who are guilty before God are subject to His wrath, for “because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience” (Col. 3:6). That’s why “the law brings about wrath” (Rom. 4:15). The transgression of the law is sin, and sin brings the wrath of God. The law, thus, condemns sinners to suffer the wrath of God, which is the punishment for sin.
Until we are justified, we are guilty before God and thus subject to His wrath. That’s why we need to be saved from the guilt of sin; and that’s why Christ assumed our guilt on the cross.

“It is by grace that the sinner is saved, being justified freely by the blood of Christ. But Christ did not die to save the sinner in his sins. The whole world is condemned as guilty before God, for they are transgressors of his holy law; and they will certainly perish unless they repent, turn from their disobedience, and through faith in Christ claim the merits of his precious blood. The sin of Adam and Eve lost holy Eden for themselves and their posterity, and those who continue to live in the transgression of God's law will never regain the lost paradise. But through the grace of Christ man may render acceptable obedience, and gain a home in the beautiful Eden restored. {ST, July 29, 1886}

"When God pardons the sinner, remits the punishment he deserves, and treats him as though he had not sinned, He receives him into divine favor, and justifies him through the merits of Christ's righteousness. The sinner can be justified only through faith in the atonement made through God's dear Son, who became a sacrifice for the sins of the guilty world. No one can be justified by any works of his own. He can be delivered from the guilt of sin, from the condemnation of the law, from the penalty of transgression, only by virtue of the suffering, death, and resurrection of Christ. {1 SM 389}

Through the imputed righteousness of Christ, the sinner may feel that he is pardoned, and may know that the law no more condemns him, because he is in harmony with all its precepts. It is his privilege to count himself innocent when he reads and thinks of the retribution that will fall upon the unbelieving and sinful. {YI, November 29, 1894}

I see no way someone can believe in justification by faith without believing this.

[ March 04, 2005, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]

Rosangela quoted from EGW:

"But while Christ saves the sinner, He does not do away with the law which condemns the sinner....The law shows us our sins, as a mirror shows us that our face is not clean. The mirror has no power to cleanse the face; that is not its office. So it is with the law. It points out our defects, and condemns us, but it has no power to save us. We must come to Christ for pardon." (RC 55)

Unquote.

Romans 8:3 – For what the law was powerless to do (in justifying us for our righteousness) in that it was weakened by the sinful nature.” – NIV

This verse says a different thing, the law has power to justify us to life as according Leviticus 18:4,5, but the failure doesn’t lay at the law but at us, we are not able to live a righteous life as according to the demand of the law to be justified because we were born in sin, where sin is in us, a part of us (as according to Romans 7), making by default what we can do is only sinning.

Paul agrees that the law has power to safe men:
He quotes Moses: “Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: ”The man who does these things will live by them.” – Romans 10:5 – NIV.
‘I found that the very commandment that was INTENDED to bring life actually brought death.” – Romans 7:10 NIV.
Galatians 3:12 “The law is not based on faith, on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” – Galatians 3:12 – NIV

God gives the law in order man might live when they do what the law demands, since he is the issuer of the law, he could not gives a law that could be accommodated by sinful man, his law is a description of his character. Therefore, all religion who based salvation on man’s effort, is issuing God’s law that could be accommodate by sinful man, giving a picture of their God as not better than sinful man.

So, even the law was intended to bring life, but no man could do exactly as what the law says and fulfill it demands, therefore, only condemnation what we get. It is us, who has no power from our own to accommodate the demands of the law.

From whom we will get the power to fulfill the law demands? From Christ, by believing him and lives according to the Spirit. Does it means, now the law could justify us for our righteousness? The bible says that no one would ever be justified by the law for their obedience. This seems like a direct contradiction, but it is not. Why? Because the justification of the law is not based on faith but on deeds, only by never sinning in our whole life against the letter of the law and the intend of the law we might be justified. And the bible said that this is an impossibility. No man might ever live perfectly sinless his whole life, in harmony with the demands of the law.

Therefore, after the cross, it is no longer based on a righteousness by the law to live according to it, but it is based on the righteousness of God, with is WITHOUT the law, that comes through faith in Jesus Christ. Justification is no longer demanded from the law, but by faith, which gives way for the grace of God that pardons sin to work, because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

At the end, what EGW said quoted by Rosangela above comes true, only Christ could save us, and not the law, not because the law has no power of it own (which is proven by Christ righteousness, who live again because the law could do no else except justifying him), but because it is us who were powerless to do what the law says and fulfill it demands.

In His love

James S

Jer. 2:22: “’For though you wash yourself with lye, and use much soap, yet your iniquity is marked before Me,’ says the Lord GOD”.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Self justification will never free us from guilt or sin, in fact self justification is the work of sin. So “our guilt/iniquity” remains. God cannot clear us of it. He cannot ignore it even if man does. He sees it, yet, it is “our guilt/iniquity” and not his holding us so.

If we are not going to go in circles here, we need to establish certain realizations in regards to Law, righteousness and judgment.

Law:
Whatsoever the Law does, those in whom it is fulfilled must do. If the Law condemns, then those who are doers of the Law must do likewise. Whatsoever the Law does, they must do if the Law will be fulfilled in them. So it is important to know what the Law is for.

But you have stated: “A doer of the law is supposed to obey the law, not to apply it. It is judges who apply the law and make decisions” In this statement you have made a dichotomy between the doer of the Law and the Judges who apply the law. And it was evident that the Judge was doing things that the doer must not. If those that fulfill the Law must not do what Judges do, then it is obvious that Judges do so by some other means. I have also presented that those who judge and condemn are transgressing the Law.

Righteousness:
Righteousness is the means whereby Judges apply the Law. So, whatever be the nature of the Judge’s righteousness is how the Law will be applied. Therefore understanding righteousness is paramount to understanding the outcome and purpose of the Law. (I have made a dichotomy between the righteousness of the sinner and his use of the Law, versus God’s righteousness and his use of the Law.)

The point then to come to grips with is, whether God’s righteousness is “fulfillment of the Law” or not. If his righteousness is fulfillment of the Law then he does not condemn, but if his righteousness is something else then we need to understand that. I present that his righteousness is the fulfillment of the Law. The sum is that whatever God’s righteousness is, so must ours be.

Judgment:
Judgment is the resulting position of the nature of the righteousness which uses the Law. It is evident then that the nature of the righteousness has all to do with the resulting judgment. Here God says that my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways.

Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

[ March 06, 2005, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]

Here are my thoughts on the terms John mentioned:

Law: A transcript of God's character. It is presented in Scripture as at time one principle, two or ten, being love, love for God and love for others, and the Decalogue respectively.

To be in harmony with the law is to be in harmony with God. God is love, and love is the fulfilling of the law. To have the law written in the heart means to be converted, so that it is one's will to do that which is pleasing to God. That is, man's will and God's will become united.

To be under the law is to attempt to serve God with a wrong motivation, with the idea of gaining God's favor by the things we do or refrain from doing. All those who attempt to serve God in this way are condemned by the law because such service is not obedience at all.

Righteousness: Right-thinking and right-doing. Thinking about and doing things as God does them.

The whole Great Controversy is about demonstrating the God is right and true in all His ways. When we become converted, it becomes our desire to think about things and do things as God does.

Judgment: In a positive sense, judgment is vindication. In a negative sense, it is condemnation.

Those who go the route of sin/unbelief bring condemnation upon themselves. This is because in so thinking/doing they seperate themselves from God, forming characters which cause God to be to them a consuming fire. The light of the glory of God (i.e. the truth about His character) destroys them.

Those who go the route of faith/obedience bring vindication upon themselves. By uniting with God, they will be shown to be right when God is shown to be right. Their interests become united with His, so the same judgment which vindicates God, vindicates them.

Law: A transcript of God's character. It is presented in Scriptures at times as one principle:
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

It is presented in Scriptures at times as two principles
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

It is presented in Scripture as the Decalogue respectively.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

How did love ever become to be seen as fault-finding, vengeance seeking, condemnation and death?

Has sin done something in the heart/mind of the sinner, deceiving him?

When man fell, he lost God’s glory (God’s spirit of righteousness/love).

Man’s concept of righteousness became sin (turned to condemnation).

God is the one who justifies - brings our judgment back to mercy, grace, forgiveness, (God’s glory).

Yes Tom, that is so true. Perhaps one of the most distorted concepts in context of condemnation is

“Justice”

Could you bring it out a little?