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Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: asygo] #126122
06/28/10 08:57 PM
06/28/10 08:57 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
In the first case you have two quotes that speak about #1 the origin (in time and source) of the law, #2 the purpose of the law.

In the second case you have three sentences which only have the word "head" in common.

Youll have to do better than that Arnold.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: vastergotland] #126123
06/28/10 09:08 PM
06/28/10 09:08 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Originally Posted By: västergötland
In the first case you have two quotes that speak about #1 the origin (in time and source) of the law, #2 the purpose of the law.

In the second case you have three sentences which only have the word "head" in common.

Youll have to do better than that Arnold.

Even if you talked about the origin and purpose of the various heads, it will not make them any more the same as talking about the origin and purpose of the law in the 2 quotes makes them the same law. Just because you think they are talking about the same thing does not mean that they are.

Even within the confines of the Bible, the student will find that "law" does not always mean the same thing. Inferring a contradiction between two quotes with very different contexts and possibly very different "glossaries" is unwise at best, disingenuous at worst.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: asygo] #126124
06/28/10 09:12 PM
06/28/10 09:12 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
So, which law does Ellen talk about? As I said, I expected someone to enlighten me, its not too late to do that.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #126125
06/28/10 09:13 PM
06/28/10 09:13 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
"In the beginning, God gave His law to mankind as a means of attaining happiness and eternal life." {AG 134.2}


16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

I suppose someone will enlighten me on why Rosangelas quote and mine are really saying the same thing.


Galatians is speaking of the giving of the law in a formal sense. The law already existed, but it was given in a formal way on Sinai, because the Israelites, in their captivity, had lost sight of the law.

The Israelites were thinking that they were able to be right with God according to their own righteousness, so God gave them the law in a formal way to make it clear to them that this was impossible, so that they would see their need for Christ.

Although Galatians highlights this purpose of the law, this wasn't the only purpose for the law, which many Scriptures (especially the psalms, and of those, especially Psalm 119) make clear. There would only be a contradiction if either Paul or Ellen White intended to say that the reason they gave was the *only* reason the law was given.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Tom] #126127
06/28/10 09:20 PM
06/28/10 09:20 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Though, Tom, where does "the promise" enter the "lost sight of the law" picture?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: vastergotland] #126131
06/28/10 10:31 PM
06/28/10 10:31 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Originally Posted By: västergötland
So, which law does Ellen talk about? As I said, I expected someone to enlighten me, its not too late to do that.

I see that Tom took a stab at it.

I would say that the law Paul was talking about was the list of requirements the people needed to fulfill in order to gain God's blessings. The law EGW was talking about was the description God gave of what it means to have God's blessings. One is the law of bondage, the other is the law of love.

I recently gave a sermon on the covenants. Here's the link: Promises, Promises. Perhaps that will clarify what I have in mind.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: asygo] #126139
06/29/10 05:00 PM
06/29/10 05:00 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: vastergotland
Though, Tom, where does "the promise" enter the "lost sight of the law" picture?


I'm not sure what you're asking here.

I can comment on Paul's argument, however. The promise is the promised inheritance, which God promised Abraham, which is the earth made new. This promise includes righteousness (to inhabit a righteous earth, one would need to be righteous), eternal life (since the new earth is eternal), forgiveness of sins, and many other things. Paul's point is that the inheritance was promised 430 years before the law was formerly given. This means that there's nothing in the formal giving of the law that can have anything to do with the obtaining of the promise.

Because the people were thinking they, of themselves, had the righteousness necessary to obtain the inheritance, God formally gave the law to them to make clear to them that they didn't, that they might seek Christ, in whom, by faith, they could obtain the inheritance.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Can the Law save us? [Re: Rosangela] #126188
07/03/10 02:57 PM
07/03/10 02:57 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: The law is a transcript of God's character. It is a description of what it means to be saved. People who live in harmony with the law are saved from sin.

R: Yes, but, as sinners, even if we kept the law perfectly in the future we couldn't be saved.

EGW: Christ died because there was no other hope for the transgressor. He might try to keep God's law in the future; but the debt which he had incurred in the past remained, and the law must condemn him to death. Christ came to pay that debt for the sinner which it was impossible for him to pay for himself. Thus, through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, sinful man was granted another trial. {FW 30.1}

Amen! Without the atoning, substitutionary death of Jesus it would be impossible to live without sinning now or in the future. Why? The human race would have ended with the immediate execution of A&E. Ellen wrote:

Quote:
The law of God existed before the creation of man or else Adam could not have sinned. After the transgression of Adam the principles of the law were not changed, but were definitely arranged and expressed to meet man in his fallen condition. Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the Son of God. {1SM 230.1}

The sins of the people were transferred in figure to the officiating priest, who was a mediator for the people. The priest could not himself become an offering for sin, and make an atonement with his life, for he was also a sinner. Therefore, instead of suffering death himself, he killed a lamb without blemish; the penalty of sin was transferred to the innocent beast, which thus became his immediate substitute, and typified the perfect offering of Jesus Christ. Through the blood of this victim, man looked forward by faith to the blood of Christ which would atone for the sins of the world. {1SM 230.2}

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