This thread deals not with health reform in all its splendour but with diet specific.

Are you claiming that starving people in the underdeveloped world are eating healthy?

I am suggesting putting your body to sacrifice for the sake of sacrifice is in no way neither respecting it or honouring it as a temple of God. There are good reasons to be healthy, claiming it is a sacrifice to God is not one of them.

I am suggesting that Jesus and Paul clearly teach that what you eat is not a sin. I would further suggest that making statements which if true would call your Lord a liar is indeed a rebellion. Therefore, I am not saying "I don't care what Ellen White or the Bible says" considering that I am building my case on the words of scripture. Jesus words are, What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' Thus what you eat does not change if you are a sinner or not. Why you eat it might do..

If you do something without knowing why you do it, if you do something because "this is how we do things around here". Then you are indeed acting on culture.

If the study is proper and accurate, it does add up to a health message. Not just the health message you espouse. If Adventist omnivores and vegans have an early death rate of 95 % (presumably in relation to the general public), while Adventist lacto-ovo-vegetarians have an early death rate of 72 %, this clearly shows that there are health benefits to be gained when going from omnivore to lacto-ovo-vegetarian. The problem you are having is the find that you loose those benefits again if you take the further step and go vegan. There is a health message in that study, for all who are willing to see it. Dr Bull did predict it would be a find hard to swallow for many with a lifetime of habit invested in their present practise.

kland, it was all in the quotes I have provided. Ellen White was addressing a physician by the name of Dr. Kress who had, in order to be an example to others, become a strict vegan. In the process, Ellen White said he was depriving his blood of that which was necessary and essential, told him this diet made him an extremist which would bring harm, not help, to the message of health reform, and advised him to add eggs back into his diet, which he had taken out of his diet. Ellen White had so much to say in that paragraph that you do not see the words "extremist" and "eggs" juxtapositioned in the same sentence. The association is nonetheless there.

The doctor was an extremist for a couple of valid reasons: 1) he was being vegan just to be an example for others who, presumably, were still eating meat; and 2) the vegan diet he had adopted was insufficient to nourish him properly.

Ellen White said he needed eggs. What's more the manner of their preparation was, in my opinion, disgusting. "Get eggs of healthy fowls. Use these eggs cooked or raw. Drop them uncooked into the best unfermented wine you can find." The editors of the Manuscript Releases inserted this note into the text of Mrs. White's letter to Dr. Kress: "DR. KRESS ACCEPTED THIS COUNSEL. HE FOLLOWED THE RAW-EGG AND GRAPE-JUICE REGIMEN REGULARLY UNTIL HIS DEATH IN 1956 AT THE AGE OF 94."

Furthermore, in specific relationship to Dr. Kress' vegan diet, Ellen White wrote the following: "We appreciate your experience as a physician, and yet I say that milk and eggs should be included in your diet. These things cannot at present be dispensed with, and the doctrine of dispensing with them should not be taught." {12MR 169.1}

Clearly, Ellen White is teaching a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet, and saying that a vegan diet "should not be taught." The only question which she leaves open upon the subject, and unanswered, is when will the time come for giving up all milk and eggs. She says that time will not come without two things happening: 1) proper substitutes will be found, and 2) God will reveal that it is time to give up milk and eggs.

Perhaps you have misunderstood Mrs. White's statements. She is clear that flesh foods need no longer be upon our tables. She makes a clear distinction between milk and meat, between eggs and chicken.

In addition, I have not said that I enjoy eating eggs. Naturally, to get the best nutrition, it is helpful to enjoy what you eat. Scientific studies have proven we get more benefit from something that we enjoyed. But to be honest, I no longer use milk at all, and I only use eggs of necessity. I do not particularly enjoy them...if I allow myself to think about where they have come from and what they are, I find them disgusting. Even more disgusting would be the "medicine" which Ellen White prescribed for Dr. Kress. Raw eggs in grape juice? Shudder. But it was necessary for his health, and God blessed his consumption of eggs.


Sarcasm, kland?

I don't understand what you are getting at, therefore, don't know how to respond. People perish for multiple reasons. Some perish sooner for adopting a vegan diet, when some eggs or milk might extend their lives. Some perish for lack of knowing Christ. Some perish physically. Some perish spiritually. Not sure which angle you were coming from.


kland, does it occur to you that I might not always have an answer? I am not a doctor, are you? In addition, B12 is one of those vitamins less understood by doctors as compared to many of the other vitamins. I do not know that we have specific "amounts" proscribed.

What I will say is this: Does one have sufficient B12 when one, for the lack of it, begins to experience tingling in the extremities, loss of taste, fatigue, loss of short-term memory, lack of appetite, etc.? I experienced all of these things toward the end of a year on a vegan diet. Eggs brought me back to normal after about three-months of their daily use. If you have B12 deficiency, you do not have enough of it, right?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Here in Asia, I know extremely few vegans. About two, to be exact, among all of my Asian friends and acquaintances. Whether or not Asia is included in the "undeveloped nations," I know not. I'm not entirely sure that "developed nations" have any advantage in terms of health. There is a fraction of the heart disease over here on the diet of rice and vegetables as compared to the American diet. Even vegetarians or vegans in America eat plenty of things that Asians do not. Refined foods. Cakes. Pastries. Sodas. Fast foods. Certainly, a "vegan" can eat french fries and potato chips, right?

The Asian diet is largely starch based, and is not heavy on dairy but relatively heavy on fish and eggs. Other meats are much less used, more as flavoring in a dish of vegetables, which are in turn served over rice. Everything is rice. In Chinese culture, rice represents life. This is why some Bible translations have translated "bread of life" as "rice of life." I suppose Jesus might also have been tempted to convert the stones to rice.

I will say this: every Adventist vegan I know is well versed in Ellen White. Vaster was certainly correct on that assessment. I qualify "Adventist vegan" because some Buddhists are also vegan. Not in Thailand. And here in Taiwan, just certain times of the year for most of them. But there are a few who choose to eat vegan always. For the Buddhist vegans, they do not eat vegan on account of health, but on account of their religion. Those animals might be their own deceased relatives in another incarnation! If Adventist vegans choose their diet based on religion, they are not getting it from the Bible, and I question their balance in understanding Mrs. White's writings. If they are choosing on the basis of health (of which longevity is a prime indicator), then perhaps this Adventist health study will convert them to a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet.

Agreed. We should treat our bodies with respect, and try to maintain our health in the best way possible irrespective of culture.

Agreed. The Bible is clear on the unclean meats, and there is no reason to consume them. I do not believe any of the New Testament statements is given to change the laws of clean and unclean meats, nor to authorize the use of all meats. Such interpretations are misguided and introduce contradictions to the Word of God.

If you are using "it" to refer to "a vegan diet," then I think you are mistaken about it being called "the health message." The "health message" simply refers to any part of our lifestyle which can be educated, changed, and improved to promote our own health and that of others. This "health message" includes such mundane things, for example, as getting pure air to breathe, getting adequate exercise and sunshine and rest, and not wearing too skimpy or too tight-fitting clothing. Nor do I see a vegan diet ever specified by Ellen White to have been a thrust of this health message. On the contrary, she has referred to some extreme measures as this as being more akin to "health deform" than to "health reform." This Adventist study, once again, proves the veracity of Mrs. White's statements and wisdom.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Most North Americans are fat. Not just fat, but obese. And not just obese, but morbidly obese. And many of them grotesquely morbidly obese to the point they cannot function. When asked to consider losing weight, they offer that they are poor and cannot afford to eat healthier.

Now maybe they are associating thinness with being healthy, I don't remember. Maybe "healthy" was the wrong word choice I made. Equating thinness with healthiness would be as bad as equating vegan with healthiness. They could be, but is not interchangeable.

The point they are making is
poor = fat
thin = rich

Because they are poor, starving people cannot get enough nourishment. They are not fat since they are poor and would laugh at N. Americans for using such a poor excuse.

I'm surprised you didn't understand that point.


I'm talking about sacrificing desire.
Do you think Eve should have sacrificed her desire?
Do you think David should have sacrificed his desire?

Interesting idea you proffer here. Many who eat swine offer the same. Whatever, it's your health.

Agreed. And were you suggesting that was what I meant?


So do you think Ellen White was wrong?

You've said what you think the health message is according to the study. What do you think the health message is according to Ellen White?


As in not sure what "silliness" you were referring to, but could your statement be applied to any desire? As in,
Don't tell me to stop smoking. The Bible doesn't speak against it. We should concentrate on what's important, knowing Jesus and working for Gods Kingdom against Satan's kingdom.

Think that could be applied to most everything?

Questions to ask yourself: First, is that what's important? Where did it come from.
Next, What is knowing Jesus and working for God's kingdom?

I guess you mean that anyone who does away with eggs is an extremist. I disagree that that's what she was saying. Guess I can't do any more here than what I've said to you and Vaster about "adding back in what was left out".

Yes, I agree. That "he had adopted".

Yes, he probably did. If he wasn't going to provide for what he left out, he needed to go back to eating eggs.

But wouldn't that be urging our cultural food choices upon others? What if one is "not ready" to give that up?

So, if I understand correctly, you don't know how much you need, you don't know how it would have been determined if you did know how much, and that it is not well understood. But yet, you somehow know that you need more, that you must eat eggs. Doesn't that seem strange to you? If something is that important for your health, shouldn't you be studying your best to learn as much as you can for the health of your body? (That seems familiar for some reason)

You imply doctors do know. But it doesn't seem you have asked them. How do they know, how do they determine how much you need? How do you know you aren't taking too much or not enough? I see you didn't mention anything about B-12 pills. Maybe too expensive, not available, allergic, weighs too much, or too hard to look for?


As far as symptoms you suggest, (and I really don't know if you are or not deficient as that's not what I'm talking about), I recently was looking up about brown recluse spiders. I've heard it commonly assumed that if you get bit by one, it's almost guaranteed that your flesh will rot off in a large area. However, a little looking shows that's not really true, that there are very few cases where that is really true. Maybe something else is going on.

Green, I was using "it" to refer to the health message. What is the "health" in the "health" message? Is it make strides, or think about making strides in the future but don't worry?

Have you not understood yet? But yet you quote the study....


It has dawned on me that perhaps the differences between us may have to do with this. Do you see what we eat affects our health? I think you do. Except you think eggs are necessary for health. Just don't urge it being necessary for others. Tell them to check into it for themselves.

Well, enjoy your eggs.

Im not american...Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart.

You can sacrifice desire and live like a monk on penance. Or you can delight in the Lord and find glory in your desires.I was suggesting this is how it often is. Greenie has shown how this study and Ellen agree with one another. You may have noticed, where you quoted this sentence from, silliness refers to thinking there is anything you can give God through sacrifice. Is it that your confusion on this issue stems from not understanding the gospel?

Gal2: 15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

The order is clear, you hear the gospel, you believe the gospel and you recieve the Holy Spirit. The Spirit will lead you on paths of righteousness, not for your many good deeds sake but for Jesus names sake. (Ps 23)

Gal3: 1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? What could possibly be more important than knowing Jesus and be known by Him?

kland,

Using "it" for "the health message" becomes....



I guess it makes even less sense to me now than if "it" had meant "a vegan diet." You don't think the health message adds anything to health? Small wonder your follow-up question, then.

At this point in the discussion, I think it appropriate to ask you how you know you are getting enough B12? What is your necessary requirement for it? How do you know you are reaching said requirement?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I came across this and just wondering if this is relevant here:

If listening more to Gods word in the bible than to you kland makes me hard-hearted in your eyes, so be it..

People should not be urged to exclude milk and eggs:
If they live in new countries or poverty-stricken districts where fruits and nuts are scarce.
If their blood-making organs are feeble.
If other foods to supply the needed elements cannot be obtained.
If eating milk and eggs, they should be from healthy cows and chickens well fed and cared for.

Implies, if not considered directly stated, milk and eggs are stimulating.
People in "full flesh" and children given to sensual habits should not eat eggs.
Eggs should not be "wholly" discarded, but somewhat discarded.
Eggs should be cooked. Which contrasts with eating them raw. What should conclude with the comment about the doctor eating them raw?

Can it be considered that if fruits and nuts are NOT scarce, milk and eggs should be "wholly" discarded?
Can it be considered that if you are in full flesh, milk and eggs should be avoided?
Can it be considered that if your blood-making organs are NOT feeble, milk and eggs should be "wholly" discarded?
Can it be considered that even if your blood-making organs are feeble, if other foods to supply the needed elements CAN be obtained, milk and eggs should be discarded in some degree if not "wholly"?



Reform should be progressive. How much have you progressed?
Disease in animals increase. How much since 1900? How much in proportion to wickedness of man?
Milk and eggs become more and more unsafe. How much unsafer now than 1900? If "now" was 1900, and milk and eggs were becoming more and more unsafe in proportion to the wickedness of man, what state of safeness do you think milk and eggs are in now?
Their place can be supplied with other things. What effort have you made?
People should be taught to cook without milk and eggs. How far is possible?


Not very long, disease is accumulating rapidly.
Hard to believe that accumulating "rapidly" in 1899, and 100 years later, it is still not very long and still soon before be have to give up any animal food.


Greatly diseased. Shall we not think that 100 years later, the animals are not even more greatly diseased? Shall we not think the Lord has let us know the time has come? Have we not those with dietetic art and skill in all parts of the world or should we think 100 years later, our knowledge of using the products of the earth has stagnated?


"Remedial" agencies. Have you been poisoned? Are you sick?
If not sick, should you eat eggs? If so, what about coffee mentioned on page 302?
Maybe this selection isn't meant for non-sick people.


In some cases, eggs are beneficial.
The time will come to wholly discard milk and eggs.
If people have little fruit, and cannot purchase nut foods,
and until we are to teach them to prepare health reform foods, they can eat milk and eggs.
Not eating milk and eggs is the most advanced proposition of health reform.

Do you have little fruit? Are you unable to purchase nut foods?
Are you teaching people how to prepare foods palatable, nourishing, and inexpensive?
If not, is that because you don't know or so they can continue eating milk and eggs?

Is it possible that the availability of a wide selection of fresh fruits, vegetables, nuts in season and out of season an indication that God has prepared a way for us to discard all animal products?
True, if you are in deserts of Africa (or wherever), you may have to rely on milk from goats (or whatever).

Are you in the deserts of Africa?