|
Forums118
Topics9,223
Posts196,066
Members1,325
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
|
27
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
31
|
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
4 registered members (Karen Y, Dina, dedication, 1 invisible),
1,631
guests, and 15
spiders. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection"
[Re: Mountain Man]
#126516
07/21/10 06:01 PM
07/21/10 06:01 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Jesus told Ellen she would be consumed to death if she were allowed to appear in the presence of God in her current state. I take this to mean sinful flesh cannot survive in the fire light of God's person and presence. I realize you dispute (and despise) this observation. You're right that I'm not crazy about the "fire light" idea. However, it makes sense to me that we, in our present condition, could not survive God in all His glory. I think the issue is one involving character, however, rather than fire light. That is, we would just be overwhelmed, like Isaiah was, because of the awesomeness of God's glory (character). Note how Isaiah responded ("woe is me, for I am undone"). Given that the issue is one of being overwhelmed by God's character, I don't think Jesus Christ, even in sinful flesh, would have had this problem. Admittedly, we don't have much from inspiration to go from, but, on the basis of intuition or common sense, it doesn't make sense to me that Jesus Christ could not have survived in God's presence.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection"
[Re: Tom]
#126524
07/22/10 02:18 AM
07/22/10 02:18 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
The idea that sinners are capable of comprehending the character of God in a way that would result in them being consumed to death seems far fetched.
|
|
|
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection"
[Re: Mountain Man]
#126530
07/22/10 04:12 AM
07/22/10 04:12 AM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Does GC 543 seem far fetched? (It says that the exclusion from heaven of the wicked is voluntary with themselves, and that being in heaven would be torture for them, that they would long to flee from). Also DA 764 says that the wicked separate themselves from God, who alone is the source of life, thus cutting themselves off from life.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection"
[Re: Tom]
#126534
07/22/10 02:04 PM
07/22/10 02:04 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
What gifts, talents, abilities, or whatever do they naturally possess that enables them to comprehend God's character so thoroughly that it results in them being consumed to death in His physical presence but not in His physical absence?
|
|
|
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection"
[Re: Mountain Man]
#126536
07/22/10 02:11 PM
07/22/10 02:11 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
PS - No, not enjoying heaven doesn't sound far fetched. Yes, that they can separate themselves from God in a way that results in them dying seems far fetched. Please explain how you envision it happening? That is, what will they do to cut themselves off from God? What will they do to cause themselves to die in His absence?
|
|
|
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection"
[Re: Mountain Man]
#126546
07/22/10 09:10 PM
07/22/10 09:10 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
I believe what DA 764 and GC 543 says about the destruction of the wicked. These are the passages that have best help me understand what happens.
I don't think God is physically absent from anywhere.
Regarding what happened, I think considering how Christ died can best help understand it. She writes that the cross proclaims that the wages of sin is death. So how did Christ die?
She talks about how Christ felt the anguish which the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads for the guilty race, that Christ couldn't see through the portals of tomb, that the sense of sin, and God's wrath, His displeasure against sin, broke his heart. I see similar things happening to the wicked. They can't see through the portals of the tomb. The sense of sin, of God's wrath, of His displeasure against sin, causes them anguish.
A key point to consider, I believe, is that sin causes one to believe things about God which are not true. In the case of Christ, He was able to overcome this by faith, by drawing upon His past experience, by His knowledge of Scripture. The wicked, not having faith, will just have the negative feelings which sin brings, of remorse, guilt, fear, anguish, etc.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection"
[Re: Tom]
#126556
07/23/10 03:45 PM
07/23/10 03:45 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Why didn't the Father's feelings about sin cause Jesus to suffer unimaginable soul anguish before He became a human?
If Jesus suffered for sin like the resurrected wicked will at the end of time does this mean they will hang on a cross and feel intense sorrow because they long to live eternally with the Father in heaven?
In what sense do you believe the Father is physically present here and now?
|
|
|
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection"
[Re: Rick H]
#126557
07/23/10 04:14 PM
07/23/10 04:14 PM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
I want to prepare this discusson on the belief of "Sinless Perfection" with a description of what is meant by "Sinless Perfection" as many think it is a 'sinless' life which it is not as scripture makes clear.
1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
So this is not a discussion on 'sinlessness' per se, as one can sin yet still reach this state of 'perfection'. It is a state or level that is reached with divine help in which we no longer sin or desire to sin, so lets start with the definition of the building blocks of belief we will use in this thread.
1) Man (sinful humans) on his own cannot achieve righteousness.
2) Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.
3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.
4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.
Now keep in mind that as the Fundamental Beliefs have the following:
18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)
...Ellen White's writings are not a external source to the argument, but well within the realm of it as those who accept its source as the Spirit of Prophecy cannot be denied its use in this discussion. I have reworded your 4 points. Do you agree with them? 1) Sinful humans cannot experience real righteousness and true holiness relying solely on their own unaided abilities. 2) Perfection is a reality when sinful humans experience a full and complete conversion (i.e have learned how to live in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus has commanded) and chooses moment by moment to abide in Jesus and partake of the divine nature. The result is they are experiencing victory over sin, self, and Satan and are maturing more and more in the fruits of the Spirit like Adam did before the Fall. 3) Before the Fall Adam had freewill and could sin, but when sinful humans experience a full and complete conversion they consciously choose to subdue and subject their inherited and cultivated sinful traits and tendencies to a sanctified will and mind. While abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature they have no desire to sin. 4) Unconverted sinful humans cannot go to heaven and stand in the presence of Divinity. They would be consumed to death by the fire light of His person and presence. God commands and demands perfect righteousness and true holiness because it is right and righteous and the only way for anyone (men, angels, or otherwise) to experience peace and true happiness. PS - A note on the word "overcoming": Overcoming sin, self, and Satan "even as [Jesus] also overcame" obviously cannot involve sinning and repenting until sinning ceases. It must necessarily mean successfully recognizing and resisting unholy thoughts and feelings (temptations) from within and from without. Do you agree?
|
|
|
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection"
[Re: Mountain Man]
#126563
07/23/10 08:21 PM
07/23/10 08:21 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Can one sin by having an incorrect idea of God's character, and communicating that incorrect idea to others? Or is simply having the right behavior sufficient?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: The belief of "Sinless Perfection"
[Re: Tom]
#126566
07/24/10 02:16 AM
07/24/10 02:16 AM
|
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Tom, please do not overlook 126556. Thank you.
PS - Regarding your question above, yes, it is possible to sin by misunderstanding the character of God and communicating it to others. However, such a sin would be considered a sin of ignorance and would not count against them in judgment. Based on what I posted above do you think I believe something about God that qualifies as a sin of ignorance?
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
