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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: Rosangela]
#126668
08/09/10 10:57 PM
08/09/10 10:57 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Thomas, how would anyone arrive at new truth if everyone believes the same thing about the context of a passage? Having the right idea in regards to the context of a passage is a good *starting* point. There's a lot to learn beyond simply what the context of a passage is.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: vastergotland]
#126694
08/10/10 04:03 PM
08/10/10 04:03 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: Thomas, as the texts I posted earlier demonstrate, Paul strung together short excerpts from the OT to establish and prove his point. He did not quote the entire passage. In the examples I quoted above, he used one sentence and partial sentences to arrive at conclusions not inherent in the context. Personally, I have no problem with him or anyone else employing the Bible in this fashion (so long as their conclusions are biblically sound).
T: I have learned that in hebrew schoolarship, where everyone knew the Torah by heart, everyone educated knew the Torah plus the prophets by heart, and the schoolars knew the Torah plus the prophets plus the commentary by heart, quoting one sentence or even one phrase was a common technique for "tagging" the whole context of the quoted phrase into your own argument. Thus, what you would write is a short reference, but what your audience hears is a two page insertion referencing a particular passage of scripture. Maybe a prophecy by Isaiah or a psalm by David or a law of Moses. Besides, prooftexting is entierly infeasible when your audience knows the correct context of the passage you atempt to misuse. Prooftexting is entierly reliant upon it ignorance of your audience as to what the text is really talking about. (As hearing someone wrench a word you are well familiar with to a purpose which is alien to it makes you uncomfortable and suspicious of the motives and intent of the speaker.)
M: Thomas, how would anyone arrive at new truth if everyone believes the same thing about the context of a passage? In other words, if everyone agrees on this and that passage, this and that doctrine, how would anyone arrive at new truth? Wouldn't it render the Bible a done deal and make discovering new truth impossible? That is, if we've discovered everything there is to know about truth and doctrine and salvation what more can we hope to learn? The Bible would be a kind of dead end.
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: Mountain Man]
#126704
08/10/10 06:50 PM
08/10/10 06:50 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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M: Thomas, how would anyone arrive at new truth if everyone believes the same thing about the context of a passage?
In other words, if everyone agrees on this and that passage, this and that doctrine, how would anyone arrive at new truth? Wouldn't it render the Bible a done deal and make discovering new truth impossible? That is, if we've discovered everything there is to know about truth and doctrine and salvation what more can we hope to learn? The Bible would be a kind of dead end. I know you addressed this to Thomas, but I'm jumping in anyway. Why would you equate knowing the context of a passage with knowing all truth? This seems to be what you're doing. Thomas' comment was dealing with understanding the context of a passage. Simply because one understands context doesn't mean one is therefore free from error, of which point the Pharisees are an example.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: Tom]
#126706
08/10/10 07:37 PM
08/10/10 07:37 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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I guess I'm equating "everyone educated knew the Torah plus the prophets by heart, and the scholars knew the Torah plus the prophets plus the commentary by heart" with knowing and understanding the truth. But in reality memorizing words is not the same as knowing and understanding their meaning.
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: Mountain Man]
#126709
08/10/10 07:55 PM
08/10/10 07:55 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Right, it's not the same. Thomas' comment was in relation to understanding the context. Paul could apparently be not taking things in context to someone who was not knowledgeable as to the context. But Paul, writing to ones who understood the context, would not need to go into detail to establish it. This is the point I believe Thomas was making.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: Tom]
#126710
08/10/10 08:10 PM
08/10/10 08:10 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Yeah, I think you're right. Knowing the content and context of the Torah and applying it to life and living here and now is what Paul did. My point is that's not what Moses did, that is, he didn't apply it to the lives of people living in the future.
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: Mountain Man]
#126712
08/11/10 06:48 AM
08/11/10 06:48 AM
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OP
Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Why would Moses be applying the scriptures he wrote to people living 5000 years later? How would it have been helpful for anyone if the advices Ellen had been making would have primarily related to the situation of someone living around 4500, or even 2050?
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: Tom]
#126714
08/11/10 07:28 AM
08/11/10 07:28 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
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Is it possible for a person to have the gift of prophesy without this being public knowledge? As I read the parable of the ten virgins, I note that when the Bridegroom comes, 5 will have the oil and 5 will not. If the parable has an application to Christ's Second Advent, then the thing that separates the virgins that are ready from those that are not is the infilling of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that gives the gift of prophecy and prophetic discernment. Thus as I read it, the remnant Church will be filled with the gift of prophecy (and all that it involves like prophetic understanding and discernment). Blessings upon the saints everywhere
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: Mountain Man]
#126715
08/11/10 07:49 AM
08/11/10 07:49 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
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Tom, I agree that current prophets (if any) or future prophets would have to build upon what God revealed through Sripture and Ellen White. They certainly could not contradict what He revealed through them or her. And, I believe the difference between teachers who repeat what previous prophets wrote and modern-day prophets has to do with the content of their message. To classify as a modern-day prophet, it stands to reason, in my mind, that they must receive something new from God through dreams and/or visions.
Thomas, there are many examples of Ellen White writing things that were not revealed to her by God which may or may not be inspired. However, whenever she wrote what God specifically revealed to her in dream or vision it is most definitely inspired and authoritative. I realize you personally do not believe this, but the SDA church certainly does. If I might join in at this point. EGW's comment: "Even the prophets who were favored with the special illumination of the Spirit, did not fully comprehend the import of the revelations committed to them. The meaning was to be unfolded, from age to age, as the people of God should need the instruction therein contained." {GC88 344.1} The example that comes to mind is Daniel. After he wrote his book, he declared "I don't understand it." But as I read EGW, I believe that her statement applies to her as well. There were some things that she explained as far as she understood them and as time goes on we will understand them more fully. And example of the progressiveness of truth: "The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves." {7BC 949.6} And the fact that "By their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves." It is clear that EGW expected them to say more after her passing.
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little"
[Re: kland]
#126716
08/11/10 08:03 AM
08/11/10 08:03 AM
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SDA Active Member 2020
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
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MM, here is what I hear you saying, You are saying that although Paul may not have actually said Christ paid for the sins of the world on the cross, you feel Paul agrees with it and if Paul agrees with it, that is the same thing as saying it. What of Paul's statement in Romans 5:11 "And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." Even though Paul does not use those very words, does not the process of Christ making atonement for our sins include the cross?
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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