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Re: Lesson #8 - The Man of ROMANS 7 [Re: Rosangela] #126789
08/18/10 04:41 PM
08/18/10 04:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
If it does not refer to actually committing sin, and Paul is speaking of the "sin which dwells within me," you must admit that either sinful tendencies are sin or that temptation (generated by the "fallen flesh") is sin.

What fallen flesh does is sinful (i.e. tempt people to indulge their innocent and legitimate needs in sinful ways). But it is not a sin in the same sense sinners sin. Sinful flesh is not a sentient being (to apply a principle Tom uses), so it cannot commit a sin. Ellen White explains it thus:

Quote:
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}

She makes it clear that sinful flesh generates and communicates to our conscious mind tempting unholy thoughts and feelings. And, bear in mind, it is not a sin to be tempted.

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Re: Lesson #8 - The Man of ROMANS 7 [Re: Mountain Man] #126793
08/18/10 08:40 PM
08/18/10 08:40 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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So you are saying that the word "sin" here (hamartia) does not mean "sin"?
Also, do you believe that "carnal, sold under sin" describes the born-again believer?

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Re: Lesson #8 - The Man of ROMANS 7 [Re: Rosangela] #126800
08/19/10 05:58 PM
08/19/10 05:58 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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The word "sin" does not imply sinning. It refers to the effects of sin, namely, we inherit sinful flesh nature. And, yes, everyone is born under the dominion of sin. Experiencing rebirth does not undo this fact. It will be true for eternity. However, while believers are abiding in Jesus they "do not sin". True, sinful flesh continues to tempt them from within to satisfy their innocent and legitimate needs (appetites and passions) in unholy ways; in Christ, however, they choose to satisfy them in holy ways, in ways that honor and glorify God.

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Re: Lesson #8 - The Man of ROMANS 7 [Re: Mountain Man] #126805
08/19/10 08:53 PM
08/19/10 08:53 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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It amazes me that you believe that acquired sinful tendencies can be transformed, but inherited sinful tendencies can't.

I disagree with the notion that indwelling sin is not sin, although it's called "sin."

But, returning to the subject of the lesson, do you believe that "carnal, sold under sin" describes the born-again believer? Do you believe that the expressions, "captive to the law of sin" (Rom. 7:23) and "free from the law of sin" (Rom. 8:2) both apply to the born-again believer? Or is there a difference between Romans 7 and Romans 8?

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Re: Lesson #8 - The Man of ROMANS 7 [Re: Rosangela] #126810
08/19/10 11:39 PM
08/19/10 11:39 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Actually, I believe cultivated sinful traits of character (old man) can be crucified. Inherited sinful tendencies (fallen flesh nature), however, cannot be crucified. It can be reined in and kept under the control of a sanctified will and mind, but it cannot be eliminated here and now. Not until Jesus returns will He replace sinful flesh nature with a sinless one.

I agree "the sin that dwells in me" is sin; it's just that I do not believe it refers to sinning. You seem to think it does. Or, have I misunderstood you?

1. Do you believe that "carnal, sold under sin" describes the born-again believer? I believe it describes the fact A&E sold out the human race to sin when they ate the forbidden fruit. It does not imply people are sinning.

2. Do you believe that the expressions, "captive to the law of sin" (Rom. 7:23) and "free from the law of sin" (Rom. 8:2) both apply to the born-again believer? Or is there a difference between Romans 7 and Romans 8? Let's look at each verse:

7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Yes, I believe both verses describe born-again believers. People are, as it were, living in captivity while alive in sinful flesh nature. They are prisoners until Jesus returns and rewards them with sinless flesh nature. Nevertheless, in Christ, they can live in harmony with the will of God. In spite of their captivity, they can imitate the character of Jesus.

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Re: Lesson #8 - The Man of ROMANS 7 [Re: Mountain Man] #126819
08/20/10 11:00 PM
08/20/10 11:00 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Brazil
Quote:
R: It amazes me that you believe that acquired sinful tendencies can be transformed, but inherited sinful tendencies can't.
M: Actually, I believe cultivated sinful traits of character (old man) can be crucified. Inherited sinful tendencies (fallen flesh nature), however, cannot be crucified. It can be reined in and kept under the control of a sanctified will and mind, but it cannot be eliminated here and now. Not until Jesus returns will He replace sinful flesh nature with a sinless one.

Mike, you are making an artificial distinction. There is no practical difference in the EGW writings between inherited and cultivated tendencies.

When the grace of God takes possession of the heart, it is seen that the inherited and cultivated tendencies to wrong must be crucified. A new life, under new control, must begin in the soul. All that is done must be done to the glory of God. This work includes the outward as well as the inward man. The entire being, body, soul, and spirit, must be brought into subjection to God, to be used by him as an instrument of righteousness. {YI, November 8, 1900 par. 3}

Quote:
I agree "the sin that dwells in me" is sin; it's just that I do not believe it refers to sinning. You seem to think it does. Or, have I misunderstood you?

Mike, “sin” is sin, and you are condemned for it.

Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God. {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 7}

Quote:
R: Do you believe that "carnal, sold under sin" describes the born-again believer?

M: I believe it describes the fact A&E sold out the human race to sin when they ate the forbidden fruit. It does not imply people are sinning.

“Carnal” and “sold under sin” are obviously synonymous here. This cannot refer to born-again believers.
Also, Ellen White applies “sold under sin” to the unregenerate man in his natural state, not to born-again believers.

When we were sold under sin, He who was rich in glory, for our sake became poor, that we through his poverty might be rich. {ST, January 6, 1890 par. 1}

Jesus knew that of yourself you could not obey God's law; for you were sold under sin; therefore he came to our world to bring to you moral power, that through faith in his name you might live. He brings his divine power to combine with your human efforts, that through his righteousness appropriated to yourself, you can keep his law. {RH, July 29, 1890 par. 8}


Quote:
R: Do you believe that the expressions, "captive to the law of sin" (Rom. 7:23) and "free from the law of sin" (Rom. 8:2) both apply to the born-again believer? Or is there a difference between Romans 7 and Romans 8?
M: Yes, I believe both verses describe born-again believers.

We cannot be captive to the law of sin and free from it at the same time! Being captive to the law of sin is to be under the dominion of sin. This is what Ellen White says:

This same resurrection power is that which gives life to the soul "dead in trespasses and sins." Eph. 2:1. That spirit of life in Christ Jesus, "the power of His resurrection," sets men "free from the law of sin and death." Phil. 3:10; Rom. 8:2. The dominion of evil is broken, and through faith the soul is kept from sin. He who opens his heart to the Spirit of Christ becomes a partaker of that mighty power which shall bring forth his body from the grave. {DA 209.3}

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Re: Lesson #8 - The Man of ROMANS 7 [Re: Rosangela] #126822
08/21/10 03:19 AM
08/21/10 03:19 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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I believe the distinction between cultivated traits of character and inherited tendencies is made clear in the SOP.

I believe there is a distinction between the sin that dwells in people and them actually sinning.

I believe the fact A&E sold the human race out to sin is an eternal truth. Rebirth does not change this fact.

I believe people are prisoners in sinful flesh nature until Jesus returns and rewards them with sinless flesh nature. In Christ they are free to refuse to sin and to imitate His lovely example.

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Re: Lesson #8 - The Man of ROMANS 7 [Re: Mountain Man] #126824
08/21/10 08:26 AM
08/21/10 08:26 AM
Daryl  Offline
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Can both sin and the Holy Spirit dwell in the same person?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Lesson #8 - The Man of ROMANS 7 [Re: Daryl] #126825
08/21/10 12:18 PM
08/21/10 12:18 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
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Posts: 3,965
Sweden
What do you mean by "dwell", Daryl?
The Holy Spirit works with the sinner as with the saint, otherwise there would be no saints to work with. Is there any other way to stop the Spirit other than committing the unforgivable sin, presumably active, will full and final rejection of Gods grace?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Lesson #8 - The Man of ROMANS 7 [Re: vastergotland] #126826
08/21/10 04:51 PM
08/21/10 04:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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The Holy Spirit, cannot, yea, will not, share the throne of our soul temple with sin, self, and Satan. We are either all of His and free of sin or none of His and full of sin. "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." There is no middle ground, no place where we are neither His nor Satan's. Ellen White observed:

Quote:
When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. We have only to neglect to ally ourselves with the kingdom of light. If we do not co-operate with the heavenly agencies, Satan will take possession of the heart, and will make it his abiding place. The only defense against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness. Unless we become vitally connected with God, we can never resist the unhallowed effects of self-love, self-indulgence, and temptation to sin. We may leave off many bad habits, for the time we may part company with Satan; but without a vital connection with God, through the surrender of ourselves to Him moment by moment, we shall be overcome. Without a personal acquaintance with Christ, and a continual communion, we are at the mercy of the enemy, and shall do his bidding in the end. {DA 324.1}


Quote:
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." 1 Cor. 3:16, 17. No man can of himself cast out the evil throng that have taken possession of the heart. Only Christ can cleanse the soul temple. But He will not force an entrance. He comes not into the heart as to the temple of old; but He says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him." Rev. 3:20. He will come, not for one day merely; for He says, "I will dwell in them, and walk in them; . . . and they shall be My people." "He will subdue our iniquities; and Thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea." 2 Cor. 6:16; Micah 7:19. His presence will cleanse and sanctify the soul, so that it may be a holy temple unto the Lord, and "an habitation of God through the Spirit." Eph. 2:21, 22. {DA 161.2}

If suspicions and envy and jealousies and evil surmisings are cherished, these will exclude the blessing of God, for Jesus cannot dwell in a heart where these things are cherished. The soul temple must be cleansed of every defilement. . . . {RC 277.2}

Said I, William, when you try with all perseverance and determined will to retrace your steps and recover yourself from Satan's snare, you will escape from your bondage and be a free man. It will require a strong will, in the strength of Jesus, to break up the force of habit, dismiss the adversary of souls that has been entertained by you so long. Exchange guests, and welcome Jesus to take possession of the soul temple. But He does not share the heart with Satan. You can make even now in this late period a determined effort, not in your strength but in the strength of Jesus. {LYL 72.2}

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