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Re: Salvation for Angels?
[Re: vastergotland]
#126237
07/06/10 06:01 PM
07/06/10 06:01 PM
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OP
FORMER-SDA Active Member 2018 Banned
Senior Member
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
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Might that be due to not all things we fancy to call sin are in fact sin? I totally, heartily agree. Well spoken.
Last edited by JAK; 07/06/10 06:02 PM.
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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Re: Salvation for Angels?
[Re: vastergotland]
#126238
07/06/10 07:26 PM
07/06/10 07:26 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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I suppose this all gets down to what your view of sin is. If it is a failure to adhere to an arbitrarily composed list of rules, then there is no good reason why even the devil himself would not potentially be converted and once again live in peace in paradise.
If on the other hand sin is unreasonable and unreasoning hatred and enmity towards God, then it seems likely that anyone who having clearly faced and known the grace and love of God and non the less wilfully rejected it and thereafter actively fight Him will be irredeemably lost. The fallen angles presumably have had all necessary exposure to God to have such a clear understanding of who He is. Vaster, Do you disdain God's Law? Why call it "arbitrary?" It is anything but arbitrary. God's Law is a transcript of His character. Is His character arbitrary? When Lucifer first sinned, was it because he hated God? As I understand it, it was not. It was because he was proud. The first sin was pride. Next came jealousy. Next came evilspeaking. I believe Satan's hatred for God grew gradually from his own realization of where he stood, and the fact that he had lost his position and forfeited his perfect life. His pride is what had kept him on his evil course, for he was too proud to confess his error. Yet as his course was increasingly against God's law, he grew to hate God with the same hatred as he had for the law. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Salvation for Angels?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#126239
07/06/10 07:46 PM
07/06/10 07:46 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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When two options are put out in polemic against each other, generally the first one given is a thesis which the speaker does not agree with but which he speaks against. Then the second proposition which is given represents the proposed thesis to be considered by his audience.
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Salvation for Angels?
[Re: JAK]
#126240
07/06/10 08:24 PM
07/06/10 08:24 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Once all created beings have had opportunity to see and understand the course of sin on this earth, and how Jesus' death is what gave sinners a second chance at eternal life, no one will desire to experiment with sin again. It is this understanding which comes in light of the cross that will prevent even the angels from ever desiring to sin.
I cannot possibly agree with this. God is doing all this just so we are "revolted" by sin and stop sinning? It is the Holy Spirit dwelling within us that prompts us to live without sinning (Romans 8:9), not revolting memories. In fact, God says he himself will forget our sins. Besides, some things set out as "sins" don't have horrible, revolting consequences, like going to church on Sunday instead of Saturday. There are millions of happy, Spirit-filled Christians going to church on Sunday. Is death a "horrible, revolting consequence" of sin? If so, then the sin itself, however mild, has just such a consequence. Whether this includes eating a piece of fruit, numbering the people of Israel, hitting a rock instead of speaking to it, turning stones into bread, or going to church on the wrong day of the week, sin has consequences. Death ranks first and foremost among these consequences. As for the "happy, Spirit-filled Christians going to church on Sunday," Mrs. White writes something that may apply to them. Some who have all their lives been led by feeling, have thought that an education or a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures was of no consequence, if they only had the Spirit. But God never sends his Spirit to sanction ignorance. Those who have not knowledge, and who are so situated that it is impossible for them to obtain it, the Lord may, and does, pity and bless, and sometimes he condescends to make his strength perfect in their weakness. But he makes it the duty of such to study his word. ... {GW92 123.1} If they follow their duty, they will soon grow out of their ignorant state. What do you believe causes us to find sin "revolting?" What do you think of the following statement? There are hearts that the Lord has touched with His Holy Spirit. No sooner does grace begin its work in the soul, than the heart is humbled and subdued; there is no wrestling for the supremacy; pride is gone; there is such a sense of the love of Christ in giving His life for sinful beings that there is no desire to become self-exalted. The converted one sees that his Redeemer lived a life of humility, and he desires to walk in His footsteps. The missionary spirit is awakened in his heart; and, while walking humbly and circumspectly, in accordance with his faith, he can not rest until he is engaged in the work of trying to win souls to Christ. He wants every one to know the preciousness of a Saviour's love. In his work of faith and devoted labor, he will meet with strong temptations and trials, for the Lord tests all His children. If he has the root of the matter in him, he will become more and more firmly established in the truth. If Christ is abiding in his heart by faith, sin appears revolting. While he will have love, kindness, and tenderness for the scholars under his charge, he will feel that as a faithful servant he must discipline and preserve order in his class. If truth is cherished, the love of the Saviour is revealed in his words and deportment. The Word of God with him is not a dead letter; he will give not only lip service, but heart service. {TSS 25.2} Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Salvation for Angels?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#126241
07/06/10 08:45 PM
07/06/10 08:45 PM
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OP
FORMER-SDA Active Member 2018 Banned
Senior Member
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
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Is death a "horrible, revolting consequence" of sin? If so, then the sin itself, however mild, has just such a consequence. Whether this includes eating a piece of fruit, numbering the people of Israel, hitting a rock instead of speaking to it, turning stones into bread, or going to church on the wrong day of the week, sin has consequences. Death ranks first and foremost among these consequences. I have already shown that death and sin are not related, since evil angels have sinned and continue to live. At best it is an unfortunate side-effect of sin on this earth. The point that I am making, and which you should address, is that the horrible memory of the death of Christ will not keep us from sinning.
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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Re: Salvation for Angels?
[Re: vastergotland]
#126242
07/06/10 09:04 PM
07/06/10 09:04 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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When two options are put out in polemic against each other, generally the first one given is a thesis which the speaker does not agree with but which he speaks against. Then the second proposition which is given represents the proposed thesis to be considered by his audience. Ok. Perhaps I mistook you to be saying what you were not meaning to say. To me, however, both of the two options you presented were extremes of the pendulum. Sin is not merely hatred toward God, any more than it is a failure to adhere to arbitrary rules. Certainly, hatred toward God is a sin. But it is possible to sin without hating God, as Eve so aptly demonstrated. Nor do I believe hatred toward God was the single most important sin involved with the fallen angels. Their basic sin was simple disobedience. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Salvation for Angels?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#126245
07/06/10 11:59 PM
07/06/10 11:59 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I have already shown that death and sin are not related, since evil angels have sinned and continue to live. This would only follow if God were not doing anything to prevent the relationship. That is, it could be the case that sin results in death, but God prevents this from happening right away, for some purpose (such as allowing sentient beings the opportunity to choose whom they wish to follow, which they obviously couldn't do if they were dead). At best it is an unfortunate side-effect of sin on this earth. I don't know what your reasoning is here. The point that I am making, and which you should address, is that the horrible memory of the death of Christ will not keep us from sinning. This would certainly depend upon our understanding of the event. It seemed to have a profound effect on John and Paul, to name just two examples.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Salvation for Angels?
[Re: Tom]
#126257
07/07/10 03:59 PM
07/07/10 03:59 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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I have already shown that death and sin are not related If those who sin will die in the lake of fire, how is it that death and sin are unrelated?
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Re: Salvation for Angels?
[Re: Rosangela]
#126277
07/09/10 10:47 PM
07/09/10 10:47 PM
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Active Member 2013
Full Member
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 215
Florida, USA
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This whole conversation is confusing. Angels are NOT men. They are created beings. Those who went with Lucifer are lost. Those who stayed with God are saved.
Harold T.
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Re: Salvation for Angels?
[Re: JAK]
#126839
08/22/10 02:56 PM
08/22/10 02:56 PM
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SDA Active Member 2020
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
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In a recent SS discussion someone mentioned that Jesus died for the angels as well as humanity. No one seemed to really object or agree, but I think this raises some questions. Does the salvation provided by Christ extend to the angels as well? Since Jesus became a man, His death can only be for the salvation of fallen mankind. Thus there is no hope for fallen angels. On the other hand His death secures all the unfallen beings which includes unfallen angels (information about Jesus' death being for the unfallen worlds is found in Desire of Ages). Blessings
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
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