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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12705
03/09/05 03:33 AM
03/09/05 03:33 AM
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Bob D, your little boy and mud puddle story is a good illustration. Thank you for sharing it with us.
I also appreciate the verses of 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 5:18 that you posted for us.
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12706
03/08/05 04:02 PM
03/08/05 04:02 PM
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Perfection is NOT my forte nor am I any kind of expert on the subject! ...
However if God says I can be perfect I can accept that. Because it is only God who could do any perfection creating He will have to work it out in His own way! My priviledge as His child is to keep talkin' to Him, Keep Listening to Him and Keep staying close to His awesome love. ... God will take care of any perfecting that may be needed! In the meantime I intend to live with JOY!!! |
| quote: rianna |
rianna, Welcome! I am glad that you have joined us.
I think you said it very beautifully. Perfection is not the forte of any of us; but it is God's forte! I am glad that you recognize that it is only by Him and through Him (not ourselves), by which we become like Him! We should focus on Him, not on ourselves or others. We should not look to what we ourselves can attain, but what He can achieve in us through His Son and His Holy Spirit. Praise God!
Thank you, rianna!
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12707
03/08/05 04:57 PM
03/08/05 04:57 PM
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New Member (Starting to Post)
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5
Tennessee
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Thank you for the welcome!
I do have a problem with the "we will always need forgiveness" theology because it appears when you dig deeper that we are all stuck with cylical sinning!
Sin
Ask forgiveness
Sin again
Ask forgiveness
Sin again and again
Ask forgiveness again and again and again!
etc....
If God has any power at all He should have a better plan then pete and repeat! And I praise Him that He does! The trick is not trying to MAKE it happen. Till God declares me perfect I imagine I will need the humilty stablizer of forgiveness!
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12708
03/08/05 05:35 PM
03/08/05 05:35 PM
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I do have a problem with the "we will always need forgiveness" theology because it appears when you dig deeper that we are all stuck with cylical sinning!
Sin
Ask forgiveness
Sin again
Ask forgiveness
Sin again and again
Ask forgiveness again and again and again!
etc....
If God has any power at all He should have a better plan then pete and repeat! |
| quote: rianna |
Hi rianna!
I am not certain that I understand what you are saying. I think you are saying that we are not condemned to continuing to sin, but that God has a way and a plan and is willing to help us overcome sin. Perhaps you can confirm or clarify.
Rianna, I am not suggesting that you say God has any deficiency nor that we should not ask for forgiveness when we sin; the following comment is not directed at you, nor at anyone else for that matter. Any "pete and repeat" is not due to any deficiency on God's part, but on our part. While God could coerce us and hard-wire us to not sin, then we would be but mere robots incapable of love. And if/when we do sin again, we should still ask for forgiveness again.
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12709
03/08/05 05:54 PM
03/08/05 05:54 PM
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One problem with the idea of being perfect is defining what is sin and what is not. |
| quote: Restin |
The issue of what is sin and what is not sin has not been a problem in all the discussions I've both witnessed and participated in, this discussion included.
they may not be including many evils such as stinginess, backbiting, gloom and depression, or anxiety, or greed, or ever eating any non-food such as potato chips or a cookie. You must be someone who never gets irritated, or gets in an argument with your spouse, or ever loses your patience, and is never defensive or showing symptoms of insecurity at any time. All neuroses, bad habits, and psychiatric problems would be on this list. You must always be punctual, always cheerful, forgiving, and obey all health rules. Then what about the sins of omission, such as failing to pass out literature in the neighborhood instead of resting on the Sabbath, or failing to give the church more than the required 10%, or failing to pay a bill because you didn't have enough money to go around, or letting yourself have any financial problem in the first place. All these "little" sins are just as bad as the big ten, according to the Bible. |
| quote: Restin |
Sin is sin. No one has suggested sin does not include "little sins", Restin.
I would suggest, however, that some of your "little sins", Restin, are not sin. Your comments above imply that we are in total control of our environment and circumstances. Your comment, for instance, about it being a sin to ever be in financial trouble in the first place regardless of why suggests that if a tornado or huricane wipes everything out, including your home and your bank, it is a sin on your part. That if your place of employment suddenly and unexpectantly closes and/or lays you off, placing you in a financial hardship, you have sinned.
Restin, I respectfully suggest that you read the book of Job.
And your "little sins", Restin, are you saying that God is powerless over these? Are you saying that even with God's almighty life-changing power and His Holy Spirit in our lives, we cannot overcome these "little sins"?
So, I just can't buy it, you people who insist that you yourself have arrived at that perfection. I can't buy it either that anyone else out there in the world is perfect, or ever will be ... Maybe you think that just because you don't lust, smoke, or steal, or watch TV, you are perfect. |
| quote: Restin |
Restin, you talk about honesty. Will you apply it here? Please direct us to a specific post of a specific individual here in this discussion who ever made such a claim.
I can't buy it either that anyone else out there in the world is perfect, or ever will be.... I've been out in the world of work and business many years now and have yet to see even one perfect person, after i've known them a year or two. |
| quote: Restin |
Restin, your object of focus is way off base. You look to other sinners and human failings to determine what is and what is not possible. I respectfully suggest that you lift your eyes higher, and as the hymn says, turn them upon Jesus and look full into His wonderful face.
Restin, the Bible tells us that with God all things are possible (Matthew 19:26; Mark 10:27; Luke 18:27) Please meditate on these passages of scripture, and also on the hymn "Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus"
Restin, there is Someone who attained perfection! There is Someone who lived without sinning! And He did it in the very same sinful environment in which you yourself live in, Restin!
I don't know, perhaps you do not believe Jesus lived without sinning. Or perhaps you believe that He lived by a power not made available to us. Perhaps you believe God mocks us by telling us to go and sin no more while withholding His enabling power to do as He directs. If so, then you have a very cynical view of God.
Restin, Look to Christ, not to man!
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12710
03/08/05 07:04 PM
03/08/05 07:04 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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I guess in many cases it is the difference between the promises in the bible and experienced life that makes the question so loaded (maybe so with desperation). On one hand Jesus says, "go and sin no more", John writes "I write this to you so that you will not sin.", Paul writes "1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?". On the other hand asking God to point out sin is a prayer that doesnt go unanswered for very long.
Then there is the aspect of how this is used. What if in a context where people would use obvious non-perfectness to make judgement on ones eternal destiny? What if in a context where perfectness or at least apparent perfectness is a membership requirement? It may be easy to forget that "Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy." and " For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." in this topic.
I think Larry, Den and others have written good explanations on much of this here. However, if someone would explain why a last day for forgiveness of sins would lead to a last day of access to Jesus? Or have I missunderstood something here. Surely Jacob was never closer to God than when they wrestled, assuming that this is what is refered to as Jacobs trouble. Also, was Israel ever closer to God than when they gathered before Him for the day of cleansing?
Maybe the whole problem again rests with a human tendency to be nosy and express oppinions about which neighbours will be continuing in error and which ones will continue doing righteousness...
/Thomas
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12711
03/08/05 07:28 PM
03/08/05 07:28 PM
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Denborg, in regard to people who ask "have you ever seen anyone who is perfect"?: We don't ask this to excuse ourselves but to be real and honest in serious life. We are trying to make religion effective, not just pie-in-the-sky with words. |
| quote: Restin |
Restin, God the Father, His Son Christ Jesus, and the Holy Spirit and the promises God gave us in His Holy Word are real, honest, and effective. They are not mere pie-in-the-sky concepts.
Restin, I sincerely hope and pray you can give up your legalistic beliefs.
We are asking, is it true that someone can become perfect? Or will we always need the cloak of Christ? |
| quote: Restin |
I believe the answer to both questions is YES.
Restin, God does not give us empty promises, nor does He mock us by expecting us to live Godly lives while making sure we are unable to do as He asks. He does not expect us to live righteously by our own power and merits, as you have portrayed, Restin.
- If someone says, "You can jump up on that cloud up there and ride it, if you just jump with all your might", ...
- It is the mark of an insane person who insists he can do anything if he just pays attention to his own doing ...
- so show me, that I can believe I can save myself and won't need the Grace of Christ if only I live long enough,try hard enough, and become equal to Him.
- All I have to say is not in any way to get out of trying hard to do right.
- But I do feel that no matter how hard i try, I'm far from perfect, ...
- I don't see any place in the Bible that says I will outgrow my need for Grace if I just keep on trucking as hard as I can go.
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| quote: Restin |
Restin, pause and reflect for a moment on your statements above. This legalism is a recurring theme in most, if not all, of your comments.
You talk about honesty. Will you apply it here? Where has anyone (besides yourself) suggested that a true change of character is accomplished by one's own self-efforts?
Furthermore, your legalistic beliefs are made quite evident with your many comments that clearly state that if you do not sin, then you do not need Christ nor His grace.
Restin, if someone was not committing a sin at this very minute, does that mean that this person no longer need Christ or grace, at not least until the next minute when he does sin? That we need Christ and God's grace only while we in the middle of committing a sin?
Perhaps you believe that every breath we take is a sin, that we are constantly sinning in everything that we do. Then you must also believe that God is powerless to change our hearts, and that we cannot live Godly lives pleasing to Him. That God saves us in our sins, not from our sins.
Restin, after Christ's Second Coming, after the dead in Christ are raised uncorruptible and we are all changed in a twinkling of an eye, how many sinful traits will we have in our character? How much sin will we commit from then throughout eternity?
If you answer, "None", then surely you believe that we then never really needed Christ's sacrifice nor God's amazing grace. Since we are then perfect, why did we need a Savoiur?!
If you answer that we will still sin, then you need to read the Bible more thoroughly.
Just as an eternity of absolute perfection in God's kingdom does not nullify our need of what Christ did for us and what He gave us, neither would any perfection in this nano-second prior to His return nullify the same.
You say we can become perfect in our lifespan, so show me, that I can believe I can save myself and won't need the Grace of Christ if only I live long enough,try hard enough, and become equal to Him. |
| quote: Restin |
Restin, if you truly want to be real and honest in this serious life, then please give a specific quote of me or anyone else here who ever stated that we can become equal to God? Where has anyone said we can make it without His grace? Where has anyone said that you can save yourself?
Where is your honesty?
All who inherit eternal life will always be indebted to all facets of God's plan of redemption, including Christ and grace. No one in God's kingdom would have saved himself or herself.
But the same power by which Christ lived sinlessly is made readily available to us. God does not mock us by asking us to turn from sin and live Godly lives while not providing the means to do so.
Nor does God expect us to change by our own power. Our bodies are the temple of God, in which He desires to dwell. By the indwelling and infilling of the Holy Spirit, we can leave our lives of sin and live lives pleasing to God.
Restin, you ask to be shown how. I give you Christ, who was in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin. (Heb 4:15)
The same Father in heaven with whom Christ walked with and talked with every day of His life on earth, is the same Father we call Abba. And He loves us as He loves His Son. After Christ left earth, He sent His Spirit to us. God's ministering angels are also there for us.
Restin, all the power in heaven is at our disposal for defeating the enemy and for defeating sin in our lives. God does not leave it to our own futile efforts. If God be for us, who can be against us? (Romans 8:31)
Restin, Look to Christ, not to man!
It isn't that we CAN'T be perfect with perfect connection with Christ at every moment of life...It's that we DON'T maintain the perfect connection, ... |
| quote: Restin |
Why don't we? Is it because we think we cannot have that connection with Christ? Do we believe it is not possible to keep a connection with Christ? [ March 08, 2005, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: DenBorg ]
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12712
03/09/05 01:09 PM
03/09/05 01:09 PM
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However, if someone would explain why a last day for forgiveness of sins would lead to a last day of access to Jesus? Or have I missunderstood something here. |
| quote: västergötland |
Could you quote the statement that you are referring to?
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12713
03/09/05 02:28 PM
03/09/05 02:28 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
On the other hand asking God to point out sin is a prayer that doesnt go unanswered for very long.
This is true. Ellen White used to pray, "Lord, show me the worst of my case." That's a prayer that takes guts.
I think we're better off if we think of perfection in terms of thinking rather than doing. Jesus said, "as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." His mission was to make known the character of God, our Father, and the nature of His government ("the kingdom of God").
By beholding we become changed. The last message of mercy is a message of God's character. When we get that right, the rest will follow.
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12714
03/09/05 04:05 PM
03/09/05 04:05 PM
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DenBorg, Admittedly, I am reading between the lines here. But I sense that some of this is more about the perception of people’s judgment of other people. You have to admit that in the back corner pews of many churches, it seems there sits those who look down their noses at everyone who isn’t exactly like them. I’m not speaking of genuine Christianity, but more about people who imply by their accusations of others, that they themselves have indeed arrived. If someone knows someone who has lost faith because of judgmental people, when someone asks if “perfection” is possible, those personal experiences can resonate in one’s response to the question. It speaks of Matthew 7:3. I don’t think it is accurate to assume that Restin has a heart full of legalism. Perhaps I am reading it wrong, but I understood Restin’s comments possibly in response to perceived legalism based on previous experience with “perfect” people. quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
I think we're better off if we think of perfection in terms of thinking rather than doing. Jesus said, "as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." His mission was to make known the character of God, our Father, and the nature of His government ("the kingdom of God").
Tom, AMEN! If we did that, perhaps…
quote:
…human tendency to be nosy and express oppinions about which neighbours will be continuing in error and which ones will continue doing righteousness...
…wouldn’t happen!
Jeff
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