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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#126983
08/27/10 04:31 PM
08/27/10 04:31 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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T:My argument has been the following:
1.If God is certain an event will occur, say X, then X is certain to occur.
2.If X is certain to occur, then there is no risk that it will not occur.
So if God was certain that Christ would not sin, there is no chance that Christ would sin, and God undertook no risk whatsoever in sending Him.
This is so clear and straightforward, I don't see where the scope for argument is.
MM:It's what you're not saying that is unclear. I'm glad you think it's clear. Do you agree with the argument? Do you believe the Bible clearly says the Father feared Jesus would fail, and sent Him anyhow hoping He would succeed? If so, please post the biblical quotes which clearly say so. If you can establish this point, then we can study what Ellen meant when she used the word "risk" in relation to Jesus' messianic mission. Post 126911 goes into detail regarding why I disagree with your reasoning here. I've invited you to respond to that post. Please don't just keep asking the same questions over and over again when they've already been addressed. Please respond to the post that addresses the question.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#126985
08/27/10 04:40 PM
08/27/10 04:40 PM
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Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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I doubt you will be able to clarify the mathematical model for how God relates to His creation.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Rosangela]
#126986
08/27/10 05:17 PM
08/27/10 05:17 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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No, in my view it doesn't require that. As I explained some pages ago, the word "risk" is applied to Christ, not to God. God sent His Son to meet a risk. What do you mean by this? Do you mean that there was no risk to God that He would lose His Son? But there was a risk to Christ that He would be lost? This is the only thing I can think of that you could mean, but this doesn't appear to me to make sense, so perhaps you have something else in mind.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#126987
08/27/10 05:23 PM
08/27/10 05:23 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I doubt you will be able to clarify the mathematical model for how God relates to His creation. This is rather a cryptic comment. Perhaps you could explain your meaning?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#126989
08/27/10 06:41 PM
08/27/10 06:41 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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>>I would never say that Mary’s chance of getting pregnant without the participation of a male was of 100%, even if God had revealed to me in a dream that she would get pregnant. I would say that her chance of getting pregnant without the participation of a male was zero – that’s why what happened was a miracle.<<
I don't see that what you're saying makes any sense. What I meant was, if I used just the posterior probability to refer to what happened to Mary, that is, if I said, as you were doing, that her chance of getting pregnant was of 100%, I wouldn’t feel I was doing justice to the miracle involved, or making evident the impossibility inherent in the case. Anyway, I’m not interested in pursuing this any further, and, as I said, I’ll let you have the last word on this. I'll give one using the argument you said you agreed with.
1.If God is certain an event will occur, say X, then X is certain to occur.
2.If X is certain to occur, then there is no risk that it will not occur.
Say X is that Christ would not be overcome by any temptation. If God was certain that Christ would not be overcome by any temptation, then it is certain that Christ would not be overcome by any temptation, and God incurred no risk in sending Him. I don't see anything to disagree with here, given you agreed with my argument presented above. This is just specifying a specific event for "X". I must make you a question. Do you think that the belief that God knows all the aspects of the future (as opposed to knowing just the possibilities) implies that peril/risk doesn’t in fact exist?
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Rosangela]
#126990
08/27/10 07:43 PM
08/27/10 07:43 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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What I meant was, if I used just the posterior probability to refer to what happened to Mary, that is, if I said, as you were doing, This isn't what I was doing. that her chance of getting pregnant was of 100%, I wouldn’t feel I was doing justice to the miracle involved, or making evident the impossibility inherent in the case.
Anyway, I’m not interested in pursuing this any further, and, as I said, I’ll let you have the last word on this. Her chance of being pregnant is based on the argument I provided that you said you agreed with. I'll give one using the argument you said you agreed with.
1.If God is certain an event will occur, say X, then X is certain to occur.
2.If X is certain to occur, then there is no risk that it will not occur.
Say X is that Christ would not be overcome by any temptation. If God was certain that Christ would not be overcome by any temptation, then it is certain that Christ would not be overcome by any temptation, and God incurred no risk in sending Him. I don't see anything to disagree with here, given you agreed with my argument presented above. This is just specifying a specific event for "X".
R:I must make(ask) you a question. Do you think that the belief that God knows all the aspects of the future (as opposed to knowing just the possibilities) implies that peril/risk doesn’t in fact exist? As asked, I can't answer the question, because it assumes that knowing all aspects of the future is in opposition to "knowing just the possibilities." Our disagreement, in regards to the future, involves what the nature or the reality of the future is. I believe that God knows all aspects of the future. I just think the content of the future is different than what your, more limited, view holds. I believe the content of the future *includes* the possibilities, so these cannot be ignored. I'll re-ask the question this way: "Do you believe that if the future were such that God could see the one thing that will happen at any moment in time, that this would imply that peril/risk doesn’t in fact exist?" Peril is defined: An event which may trigger a damage or loss due to earthquake, fire, lightning, vandalism, theft, and other similar risks. So given that earthquakes, fires, lightning, etc. exist, then peril would exist, right? However, if God knew that at a given period time, at a particular place) that no dangerous events would occur, then there would be no loss or peril (for that period of time, and that place).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#126994
08/27/10 08:17 PM
08/27/10 08:17 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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I'll re-ask the question this way: "Do you believe that if the future were such that God could see the one thing that will happen at any moment in time, that this would imply that peril/risk doesn’t in fact exist?" Peril is defined: An event which may trigger a damage or loss due to earthquake, fire, lightning, vandalism, theft, and other similar risks. So given that earthquakes, fires, lightning, etc. exist, then peril would exist, right? However, if God knew that at a given period time, at a particular place) that no dangerous events would occur, then there would be no loss or peril (for that period of time, and that place). But if I was in the middle of an earthquake and yet escaped without any harm? Was I exposed to peril or not?
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: kland]
#127000
08/27/10 09:25 PM
08/27/10 09:25 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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EW: He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss. {DA 49.1}
K: So how do you see peril in common with every human soul not being risk? Guess you haven't defined it yet. The risk was real. Jesus could have failed and suffered eternal loss. But what I'm saying is - The risks Jesus faced while here in the flesh had nothing to do with the Father knowing Jesus would succeed. Nor did it have anything to do with the fact Jesus believed He would succeed. Jesus still had to work to succeed.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#127001
08/27/10 09:46 PM
08/27/10 09:46 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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T: The Scriptures present God as taking risks in general. In regards to Christ, the only way in which God could NOT have been taking a risk by sending Christ would be if there was no chance that Christ could have fallen in his conflict against Satan and temptation. Your view:
1.God was absolutely certain that Christ would succeed.
2.Therefore it was absolutely certain that Christ would succeed.
3.Therefore Christ could not have failed in His battle against Satan and temptation.
The reason I say the following is backwards - "You seen to be implying the Messianic prophecies obviously imply conditionality (even though the language employed is empathic and positive) because you believe God was uncertain Jesus would succeed." - is because I am not reasoning that because I believe God was uncertain that Jesus would succeed that it follows that conditionality is involved in the Messianic prophecies. I am reasoning that the temptations which Christ confronted were real, and that He could have fallen to them. Therefore God could not have been certain that Christ would succeed (see points 1-3 above). Even Jesus, while here in the flesh, was 100% certain He was going to succeed on the cross. Not once did He express doubt about it. There was nothing conditional about the prophecies or Jesus' belief. Yet, the risks He faced were real. He could have failed. But, His success on the cross was as much a fact before and after He succeeded. None of this, however, diminishes the risks Jesus faced before He succeeded.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127004
08/27/10 10:35 PM
08/27/10 10:35 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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But if I was in the middle of an earthquake and yet escaped without any harm? Was I exposed to peril or not? It depends upon if there was any possibility of your being hurt. If there was, then you were. If there was not, then you weren't.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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