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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #127044
08/29/10 12:07 AM
08/29/10 12:07 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
M: Just because both the Father and the Son knew for certain Jesus would succeed on the cross it doesn’t mean He couldn’t sin, fall, or fail.

T: Anything God knows for certain will happen, it doesn't matter what it is, will certainly happen. There's no chance the thing will not happen. It's impossible for it not to happen. If a thing will certainly happen, there's no chance that it won't happen. Where's the difficulty here?

M:For God the future is like a rerun. He knows what will happen because He has already watched it play out. He's not like us in that we can only guess several ways something might play out. Reporting the facts after the fact does not alter the facts. Like reading a history book and knowing ahead of time how it will end does not alter reality.[/quote]

I don't believe this view is in harmony with what God has revealed us. For example:

Quote:
The value of a soul, who can estimate? Would you know its worth, go to Gethsemane, and there watch with Christ through those hours of anguish, when He sweat as it were great drops of blood. Look upon the Saviour uplifted on the cross. Hear that despairing cry, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Mark 15:34. Look upon the wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet. Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. (COL 196)


Notice this says that "heaven itself was imperiled." If the future were like a re-run, then God would have known that heaven would never have been in any danger, and to assert that heaven was imperiled would simply be incorrect.

Here we're told frankly that "Christ risked all" and that "heaven itself was imperiled." You're suggesting a view of the future that makes this impossible.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #127052
08/29/10 12:54 AM
08/29/10 12:54 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
M: Or, do you believe Jesus did not know ahead of time with absolute certainty He would succeed on the cross? If so, where did he say so?

T: He knew He could succeed, or fail, depending upon the choices He made, just as any other person can succeed or fail. We have free will. We can know that God will not fail us, but how can we be sure we ourselves won't fail?

You didn't post from the Bible where Jesus said something to the effect, "I am uncertain I will succeed. There's a chance I will fail."

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #127054
08/29/10 01:02 AM
08/29/10 01:02 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, I addressed this posts ago. I've also asked you to write posts that in some way indicate you've read what I've been writing.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #127055
08/29/10 01:02 AM
08/29/10 01:02 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
M: Just because both the Father and the Son knew for certain Jesus would succeed on the cross it doesn’t mean He couldn’t sin, fall, or fail.

T: Anything God knows for certain will happen, it doesn't matter what it is, will certainly happen. There's no chance the thing will not happen. It's impossible for it not to happen. If a thing will certainly happen, there's no chance that it won't happen. Where's the difficulty here?

M: For God the future is like a rerun. He knows what will happen because He has already watched it play out. He's not like us in that we can only guess several ways something might play out. Reporting the facts after the fact does not alter the facts. Like reading a history book and knowing ahead of time how it will end does not alter reality.

T: I don't believe this view is in harmony with what God has revealed us. For example: "The value of a soul, who can estimate? Would you know its worth, go to Gethsemane, and there watch with Christ through those hours of anguish, when He sweat as it were great drops of blood. Look upon the Saviour uplifted on the cross. Hear that despairing cry, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Mark 15:34. Look upon the wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet. Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. (COL 196)

Notice this says that "heaven itself was imperiled." If the future were like a re-run, then God would have known that heaven would never have been in any danger, and to assert that heaven was imperiled would simply be incorrect. Here we're told frankly that "Christ risked all" and that "heaven itself was imperiled." You're suggesting a view of the future that makes this impossible.

You are assuming God did not know with absolute certainty Jesus would succeed on the cross. You are drawing your conclusion based on unrelated, non-biblical sources. Your conclusion is at odds with all the Bible passages which plainly prophesy Jesus will succeed. Nowhere in the Bible does it represent the Father or Jesus expressing uncertainty as to the outcome of Christ's mission.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #127058
08/29/10 01:16 AM
08/29/10 01:16 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
M: Just because both the Father and the Son knew for certain Jesus would succeed on the cross it doesn’t mean He couldn’t sin, fall, or fail.

T: Anything God knows for certain will happen, it doesn't matter what it is, will certainly happen. There's no chance the thing will not happen. It's impossible for it not to happen. If a thing will certainly happen, there's no chance that it won't happen. Where's the difficulty here?

M: For God the future is like a rerun. He knows what will happen because He has already watched it play out. He's not like us in that we can only guess several ways something might play out. Reporting the facts after the fact does not alter the facts. Like reading a history book and knowing ahead of time how it will end does not alter reality.

T: I don't believe this view is in harmony with what God has revealed us. For example: "The value of a soul, who can estimate? Would you know its worth, go to Gethsemane, and there watch with Christ through those hours of anguish, when He sweat as it were great drops of blood. Look upon the Saviour uplifted on the cross. Hear that despairing cry, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Mark 15:34. Look upon the wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet. Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. (COL 196)

Notice this says that "heaven itself was imperiled." If the future were like a re-run, then God would have known that heaven would never have been in any danger, and to assert that heaven was imperiled would simply be incorrect. Here we're told frankly that "Christ risked all" and that "heaven itself was imperiled." You're suggesting a view of the future that makes this impossible.

M:You are assuming God did not know with absolute certainty Jesus would succeed on the cross.


No, I'm not assuming this. I'm *concluding* this, because of the arguments I've laid out, which it doesn't appear to me you are addressing.

Quote:
You are drawing your conclusion based on unrelated, non-biblical sources passages.


Given how often you quote the SOP, this seems a bit disingenuous. It as if you're happy to quote the SOP as long is it agrees with what you believe, but when it doesn't, you complain when someone else quotes it.

If you wish to have a discussion on the subject of the future and God's foreknowledge without reference to the SOP, please start a thread, and I'd be happy to do so with you.

As to the quotes being non-related, they could hardly be more related. The COL 196 quote is as related as can be, specifically dealing with the risk that Christ took.

Quote:
Your conclusion is at odds with all the Bible passages which plainly prophecy Jesus will succeed.


No it's not. There's an implicit assumption involved here. Christ's success was contingent upon His faithfulness.

Is it your belief that Christ could not have fallen to temptation? Assuming it's not, then God must have foreseen that possibility, right?

Quote:
Nowhere in the Bible does it represent the Father or Jesus expressing uncertainty as to the outcome of Christ's mission.


I addressed this point in a detail post. I gave you the post #. I asked you to respond to that post, and to not keep repeating this as if I hadn't responded to it.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #127060
08/29/10 01:26 AM
08/29/10 01:26 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
You're right, I have no problem referencing the SOP to support biblical truths. However, you are going at it backwards on this point. First prove from the Bible that the Father and the Son expressed uncertainty as to the outcome of Christ's mission, then we can turn to the SOP in support of it. I've gone back and reread your comments, and I haven't anything you said that addresses this foundation point. Saying conditionality is an implicit assumption is unwarranted. The reason the Father knew with absolute certainty Jesus would succeed is based on the fact He knows the "end from the beginning". His knowledge of the facts is based on His ability to know the future like a rerun.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #127067
08/29/10 01:54 AM
08/29/10 01:54 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
You're right, I have no problem referencing the SOP to support biblical truths. However, you are going at it backwards on this point. First prove from the Bible that the Father and the Son expressed uncertainty as to the outcome of Christ's mission, then we can turn to the SOP in support of it.


But you never do this! You routinely quote from the SOP making no effort whatsoever to prove your point from Scripture first. Why are you changing your methodology?

Quote:
I've gone back and reread your comments, and I haven't anything you said that addresses this foundation point.


I made no attempt to do so. I explained to you that this isn't the foundational point. I explained the foundational point is whether or not God takes risks. I explained that there are many who believe on the basis of Scripture that God takes risks, with no acquaintance with the SOP.

Quote:
Saying conditionality is an implicit assumption is unwarranted.


? Of course it isn't. If the temptations Christ faced were real, then conditionality is an implicit assumption. How could it be otherwise?

Quote:
The reason the Father knew with absolute certainty Jesus would succeed is based on the fact He knows the "end from the beginning". His knowledge of the facts is based on His ability to know the future like a rerun.


If this is the case, then heaven wasn't imperiled.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #127070
08/29/10 02:04 AM
08/29/10 02:04 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Saying the prophecies which depict Jesus succeeding on the cross imply conditionality assumes the Father did not know with certainty Jesus would succeed. Knowing Jesus would succeed implies faithfulness not conditionality.

Saying the Father's ability to know the future like history means heaven was never in jeopardy assumes FMAs also know the future like history. The quote doesn't say the Father was uncertain Jesus would succeed therefore heaven was in peril or in the balances.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #127073
08/29/10 02:19 AM
08/29/10 02:19 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
FMAs believe the Father and Son will win the great controversy. Does their belief negate the risk and imperil quotes?

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #127074
08/29/10 02:58 AM
08/29/10 02:58 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Saying the prophecies which depict Jesus succeeding on the cross imply conditionality assumes the Father did not know with certainty Jesus would succeed.


All prophecies which involve free will imply conditionality.

Quote:
Then the word of the Lord came to me: 6Can I not do with you, O house of Israel, just as this potter has done? says the Lord. Just like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. 9And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.(Jer. 18)


Quote:
Knowing Jesus would succeed implies faithfulness not conditionality.


If God was certain that Jesus would succeed, then He took no risk in sending Him, and heaven was not imperiled. Also, if there was no chance that Christ would fail, then how could have his temptations have been real?

Quote:
Saying the Father's ability to know the future like history means heaven was never in jeopardy assumes FMAs also know the future like history.


No it doesn't. Why would you think such a thing?

If heaven was imperiled, that means it was in danger. If God knew it wasn't in danger, then it wasn't in danger. This has nothing whatsoever to do with how someone else besides God sees the future.

Quote:
The quote doesn't say the Father was uncertain Jesus would succeed therefore heaven was in peril or in the balances.


It says heaven was imperiled. But under your view, heaven wasn't imperiled.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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