The value of a soul, who can estimate? Would you know its worth, go to Gethsemane, and there watch with Christ through those hours of anguish, when He sweat as it were great drops of blood. Look upon the Saviour uplifted on the cross. Hear that despairing cry, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Mark 15:34. Look upon the wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet. Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. (COL 196)

M: Or, do you believe Jesus did not know ahead of time with absolute certainty He would succeed on the cross? If so, where did he say so?

T: He knew He could succeed, or fail, depending upon the choices He made, just as any other person can succeed or fail. We have free will. We can know that God will not fail us, but how can we be sure we ourselves won't fail?

M: Just because both the Father and the Son knew for certain Jesus would succeed on the cross it doesn’t mean He couldn’t sin, fall, or fail.

T: Anything God knows for certain will happen, it doesn't matter what it is, will certainly happen. There's no chance the thing will not happen. It's impossible for it not to happen. If a thing will certainly happen, there's no chance that it won't happen. Where's the difficulty here?

M: For God the future is like a rerun. He knows what will happen because He has already watched it play out. He's not like us in that we can only guess several ways something might play out. Reporting the facts after the fact does not alter the facts. Like reading a history book and knowing ahead of time how it will end does not alter reality.

T: I don't believe this view is in harmony with what God has revealed us. For example: "The value of a soul, who can estimate? Would you know its worth, go to Gethsemane, and there watch with Christ through those hours of anguish, when He sweat as it were great drops of blood. Look upon the Saviour uplifted on the cross. Hear that despairing cry, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Mark 15:34. Look upon the wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet. Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. (COL 196)

Notice this says that "heaven itself was imperiled." If the future were like a re-run, then God would have known that heaven would never have been in any danger, and to assert that heaven was imperiled would simply be incorrect. Here we're told frankly that "Christ risked all" and that "heaven itself was imperiled." You're suggesting a view of the future that makes this impossible.

M: Just because both the Father and the Son knew for certain Jesus would succeed on the cross it doesn’t mean He couldn’t sin, fall, or fail.

T: Anything God knows for certain will happen, it doesn't matter what it is, will certainly happen. There's no chance the thing will not happen. It's impossible for it not to happen. If a thing will certainly happen, there's no chance that it won't happen. Where's the difficulty here?

M: For God the future is like a rerun. He knows what will happen because He has already watched it play out. He's not like us in that we can only guess several ways something might play out. Reporting the facts after the fact does not alter the facts. Like reading a history book and knowing ahead of time how it will end does not alter reality.

T: I don't believe this view is in harmony with what God has revealed us. For example: "The value of a soul, who can estimate? Would you know its worth, go to Gethsemane, and there watch with Christ through those hours of anguish, when He sweat as it were great drops of blood. Look upon the Saviour uplifted on the cross. Hear that despairing cry, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Mark 15:34. Look upon the wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet. Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. (COL 196)

Notice this says that "heaven itself was imperiled." If the future were like a re-run, then God would have known that heaven would never have been in any danger, and to assert that heaven was imperiled would simply be incorrect. Here we're told frankly that "Christ risked all" and that "heaven itself was imperiled." You're suggesting a view of the future that makes this impossible.

M:You are assuming God did not know with absolute certainty Jesus would succeed on the cross.

You are drawing your conclusion based on unrelated, non-biblical sources passages.

Your conclusion is at odds with all the Bible passages which plainly prophecy Jesus will succeed.

Nowhere in the Bible does it represent the Father or Jesus expressing uncertainty as to the outcome of Christ's mission.

You're right, I have no problem referencing the SOP to support biblical truths. However, you are going at it backwards on this point. First prove from the Bible that the Father and the Son expressed uncertainty as to the outcome of Christ's mission, then we can turn to the SOP in support of it.

I've gone back and reread your comments, and I haven't anything you said that addresses this foundation point.

Saying conditionality is an implicit assumption is unwarranted.

The reason the Father knew with absolute certainty Jesus would succeed is based on the fact He knows the "end from the beginning". His knowledge of the facts is based on His ability to know the future like a rerun.

Saying the prophecies which depict Jesus succeeding on the cross imply conditionality assumes the Father did not know with certainty Jesus would succeed.

Then the word of the Lord came to me: 6Can I not do with you, O house of Israel, just as this potter has done? says the Lord. Just like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. 9And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.(Jer. 18)

Knowing Jesus would succeed implies faithfulness not conditionality.

Saying the Father's ability to know the future like history means heaven was never in jeopardy assumes FMAs also know the future like history.

The quote doesn't say the Father was uncertain Jesus would succeed therefore heaven was in peril or in the balances.