Kland, I have no comment.

These aren't problems along the order I was speaking of. The problems I mentioned are moral problems. The position I'm taking doesn't have moral problems associated to it (does it? I'm not aware of any).

These questions you are asking are technical questions, along the lines of how is it that Paul said for me to die is gain to be with Christ, or how Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. That is, these are questions that deal with how we interpret certain texts, but don't deal with the moral implications of taking the point of view, which is what I was getting at.



He didn't! God took a risk in sending Christ. All heaven was imperiled for our redemption.



Like Nineveh? "In 40 days you will be destroyed!" That didn't happen, yet we still trust prophecies, don't we?

Jeremiah 18 lays out the principle of prophecy:



When free will beings are concerned, prophecies are conditional.



This is misunderstanding the issue. The issue concerned the character, or nature, or content of the future.

We both agree that God is omniscient, and that God perfectly knows the future. Your attempt to characterize my view as ignorance about how things will play out is a mischaracterization. I believe God knows the future perfectly, as it really is, and this view of the future is constantly changing, as possibilities become realities, as time moves on.

I see serious moral dilemmas with the view you hold, which I mentioned previously. I don't believe there are any moral problems with the view I hold. The only objection you could raise against it is that it doesn't agree with how you understand certain passages of Scripture or the SOP to read.

Tom, there are many things about the Godhead which we cannot explain using human logic and natural law, which, in fact, defy human logic and natural law. There's nothing illogical about it. For example, Jesus created everything out of nothing. He also created some things by simply speaking them into existence. Jesus miraculously cured diseases, raised the dead to life, and performed many other unexplainable wonders. None of these things can be replicated using human logic and natural law. We must accept by faith that Jesus can do such things because He is God and possesses supernatural powers which defy human logic and natural law. It is perfectly logical then to believe God possesses the supernatural ability to know the future like history without compromising free will. It is no more unexplainable than all the other human-logic-defying things God does.

You're misunderstanding what logic is, it looks to me (i.e., "logic" in the context of our discussion). Logic has to do with the validity of arguments, and being able to reason from cause to effect. There's nothing which defies logic in what you're suggesting.



This isn't a valid argument. For several reasons. I'll just let it go at that.



We're dealing with two different things. One is an argument which is not valid (the arguments you have been presenting, which you admit "defy human logic," meaning they are not sound, or logical), and the other is understanding things which are beyond our ability to comprehend, like how God could always have existed.

Tom, your view of God makes it impossible for FMAs throughout the Universe to believe with absolute certainty "affliction shall not rise up the second time."

Tom, is it safe to say it defies your understanding of logic and time and space if it is true God knows the future like history?

Because we are not Deists. Our God is active and can certainly act to make or influence one option to occur rather than a different option.

Better that than a reality where the FMA is only an illusion, dont you think?

Creating out of nothing (or at least out of watery chaos), raising the dead or walking on water defies natural law. But how does it defy logic?How are divine properties defying logic?I do not see how a being who by definition is able to give life giving life defies logic. I see how having a choice where only one option exists defies logic.

Claiming that something defies logic is not helpful. Can you show how it defies logic through some simple examples?

Sure there are moral problems associated to it. One of them is the possibility that God interferes in the free will of His creatures in order to bring about the fulfillment of a prophecy, like Thomas has just implied. Judas is an example. Cyrus is another one.
Another example is the issue I raised at the beginning of this discussion about Matthew 24:36. If God knows the day and hour of Christ’s coming, as Jesus said, and if the church must be ready for Christ’s coming, either 1) God will force the church to be ready at a given time so that Christ can come at the set date, or 2) since God doesn’t know when the church will get ready, He doesn’t know the day and hour of Christ’s coming, which means that Jesus’ statement is not true.