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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Rosangela]
#127211
08/31/10 08:53 PM
08/31/10 08:53 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, your view of God makes it impossible for FMAs throughout the Universe to believe with absolute certainty "affliction shall not rise up the second time." No it doesn't. Before I respond to this again, you've raised this point in the past, and I responded. Do you recall what I said?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Rosangela]
#127212
08/31/10 08:59 PM
08/31/10 08:59 PM
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OP
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Tom, is it safe to say it defies your understanding of logic and time and space if it is true God knows the future like history? No, but it would be safe to say that I was wrong in thinking that human beings have free will (according to the libertarian definition). I think it would also be safe to say that I was wrong in asserting that God was innocent for the existence of sin.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#127213
08/31/10 09:24 PM
08/31/10 09:24 PM
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OP
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Boy it's cool to see all the responses! I'll contribute as I have time. Hope there's some more to read when I'm able to look again!
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#127214
08/31/10 10:13 PM
08/31/10 10:13 PM
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SDA
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M: Tom, your view of God makes it impossible for FMAs throughout the Universe to believe with absolute certainty "affliction shall not rise up the second time."
T: No it doesn't. Before I respond to this again, you've raised this point in the past, and I responded. Do you recall what I said? You said something to the effect God knows all the possible future outcomes based on all the possible choices everyone might make for eternity and knows with absolute certainty none of the choices will result in rebellion.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#127215
08/31/10 10:18 PM
08/31/10 10:18 PM
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M: Tom, is it safe to say it defies your understanding of logic and time and space if it is true God knows the future like history?
T: No ... What then? Is the opposite true? That is, if God knows the future like history it supports your view of the future and time and space?
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127216
08/31/10 10:20 PM
08/31/10 10:20 PM
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Thomas, can you explain how God created everything out of nothing (i.e. nothing existed before God created it) using human logic and natural law?
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Rosangela]
#127219
09/01/10 12:52 AM
09/01/10 12:52 AM
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OP
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Sure there are moral problems associated to it. One of them is the possibility that God interferes in the free will of His creatures in order to bring about the fulfillment of a prophecy, like Thomas has just implied. I take it you're referring to this: Our God is active and can certainly act to make or influence one option to occur rather than a different option. I doubt that Thomas had in mind God's doing something immoral to fulfill a prophecy. For example, suppose God influenced Cyrus' parents to name him "Cyrus." That hardly seems immoral to me. I can see if God use His influence to induce someone to sin, that would be immoral. But surely God can influence people to do helpful or neutral things without being immoral, can't he? Judas is an example. Cyrus is another one. I already discussed Cyrus. Regarding Judas, it is not my position that God influenced Judas in any way except to repent and accept Christ. Another example is the issue I raised at the beginning of this discussion about Matthew 24:36. If God knows the day and hour of Christ’s coming, as Jesus said, and if the church must be ready for Christ’s coming, either 1) God will force the church to be ready at a given time so that Christ can come at the set date, or 2) since God doesn’t know when the church will get ready, He doesn’t know the day and hour of Christ’s coming, which means that Jesus’ statement is not true.[quote]
This isn't a moral question, but a difference of opinion. I can adduce evidence that Christ's coming is not a fixed date. For example, Peter says we are to hasten Christ's coming. EGW said many times that Christ could have "come 'ere now." She said:
[quote] Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own.
It is the privilege of every Christian not only to look for but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (2 Peter 3:12, margin). Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel. Quickly the last great harvest would be ripened, and Christ would come to gather the precious grain. (COL 69) This hardly sounds like the coming of Christ is a fixed date that we can't affect. EGW tells us that Christ was disappointed that He couldn't come in the 1888 era, I think it was in 1903, and Christ is omniscient now (at least, it's my belief that He is). At any rate, none of these are moral questions, like the two examples I gave. (Free will -- libertarian definition, and God's responsibility for the existence of sin).
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Rosangela]
#127220
09/01/10 12:58 AM
09/01/10 12:58 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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I wouldn't know how to define it. He is a charismatic figure and gifted speaker who was lucky enough to assume the government of the country when inflation was already under control and who captivated the poor population with the "Family Allowance", which is a controversial program, because some think it discourages the search for employment and helps to "buy" votes of poor and ignorant people. Interesting comments. I don't know much about Brazililan politics. I remember when Lula was campaigning for something back in the '80s in Rio. Something about going to the beach and starting to work at noon. Something I thought about is that with mandatory elections, that must have a rather significant impact on pushing the country towards more liberal candidates. In the U.S. one of the big problems for the Democrats is getting out the vote. Usually a good turn out bodes well for them. If elections here were mandatory, the Republican would never win (well, actually, what would happen is Republicans would have to become much more liberal to have a chance to compete, and that would probably push the Democrats to be more liberal, making the whole country more liberal, which is why I suspect the same thing would apply to Brazil.)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#127221
09/01/10 01:05 AM
09/01/10 01:05 AM
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OP
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M: Tom, your view of God makes it impossible for FMAs throughout the Universe to believe with absolute certainty "affliction shall not rise up the second time."
T: No it doesn't. Before I respond to this again, you've raised this point in the past, and I responded. Do you recall what I said?
M:You said something to the effect God knows all the possible future outcomes based on all the possible choices everyone might make for eternity and knows with absolute certainty none of the choices will result in rebellion. Very good! So it (my view) doesn't make it impossible for FMAs (free moral agents) to know with certainty that sin won't arise again (unless you think it's impossible that God can see every possibility, or that in none of the possibilities does sin arise again). There's also the judgment to consider. The character of all will have been revealed. M: Tom, is it safe to say it defies your understanding of logic and time and space if it is true God knows the future like history?
T: No ...
M:What then? Is the opposite true? That is, if God knows the future like history it supports your view of the future and time and space? Why "time and space"? Also, you left out logic. My previous answer (which you cut off) addressed the logic part of the question. If the future really consists of only things that must happen, but of which we are ignorant (but God knows), as opposed to including possibilities, and being such that we can impact it, then I'm wrong about that.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#127225
09/01/10 04:31 AM
09/01/10 04:31 AM
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Active Member 2011
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Sweden
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Thomas, can you explain how God created everything out of nothing (i.e. nothing existed before God created it) using human logic and natural law? As I said before, it cannot be explained through natural law (as far as I am aware). Logic is a method of arguing where you cannot contradict yourself and conclusions must follow from your premises. If the premises are that Gods omnipotence allows Him to create out of nothing and Gods love urges Him to create beings to love, then there is nothing illogical about creation.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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