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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#127276
09/02/10 04:50 PM
09/02/10 04:50 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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T:Thinking some more about probability having to do with ignorance, from a math standpoint, this isn't true at all. For example, you can ask the question, "What's the probability that a fair coin will turn up heads?" and the answer is 0.5. This isn't in any way dependent upon knowing anything about any specific coin. It's a theoretical question, with a specific answer, not dependent upon any specific coin nor limited by ignorance.
M:But the rules change if the guy who flipped the coin has looked already and knows which side is facing up. From his perspective there is no chance he is uncertain. But his knowledge does not rob others of free will. As I said: It's a theoretical question, with a specific answer, not dependent upon any specific coin nor limited by ignorance.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#127277
09/02/10 04:54 PM
09/02/10 04:54 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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In the quotes below the blue highlights say God knew from eternity past which angels and humans would be destroyed in the lake of fire and which humans would embrace salvation and live eternally. The red highlights explain why God chose to create angels and humans even though He knew some would sin and die. Here's one of the quotes: The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent. Redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam, but an eternal purpose, suffered to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created. {ST, December 15, 1914 par. 3} So you're saying that God chose to have sin come about in this world, "for the good of all the worlds that God had created." Is this correct?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#127278
09/02/10 05:03 PM
09/02/10 05:03 PM
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Is ignorance limited to not knowing something knowable? Or if you don't know something which isn't knowable, is ignorance still involved? If the future isn’t knowable, prophecies are untrustworthy, as they are only guesses. If God can’t see the future, why does Ellen White say, as I pointed out at the beginning of this discussion, that the past and the future are equally clear to God, and that He sees the far distant future with as clear a vision as we see the things that are transpiring in the present? This must be untrue, then. Someone who sees only possibilities in the future can’t say that the future and the past are equal.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#127279
09/02/10 05:15 PM
09/02/10 05:15 PM
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Brazil
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T: Again, the issue is not one of things be altered, but of not being able to effect change. That is, we cannot change the past. But can we change the future? If God views it like history, then we can't. Can someone change the future? How can someone change what does not exist yet? We can only change the present.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Rosangela]
#127281
09/02/10 05:25 PM
09/02/10 05:25 PM
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Active Member 2011
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Sweden
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The present is ever changing, ever moving. What we do is in the past in a moment, and yet it affects what was just seconds ago our future.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Rosangela]
#127282
09/02/10 05:29 PM
09/02/10 05:29 PM
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OP
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T:Is ignorance limited to not knowing something knowable? Or if you don't know something which isn't knowable, is ignorance still involved?
R:If the future isn’t knowable, prophecies are untrustworthy, as they are only guesses. My point is that you are suggesting if God doesn't see the future as single-threaded, that this is ignorance. But what if the future isn't single-threaded. Then there wouldn't be any ignorance involved, because God would simply not be knowing something which isn't knowable, akin to saying that God can't know a square to be a triangle. God knows the future as it is. If God can’t see the future, why does Ellen White say, as I pointed out at the beginning of this discussion, that the past and the future are equally clear to God, and that He sees the far distant future with as clear a vision as we see the things that are transpiring in the present? God sees both the past and future with perfect clarity, but the past and future are fundamentally different, even to God. The past is fixed, the future is not. That is, the future involves possibilities, whereas the past does not. This must be untrue, then. Someone who sees only possibilities in the future can’t say that the future and the past are equal. They're not equal! God sees them both with equal clarity, but they are not the same thing. The future hasn't happened yet. Self-determining beings can impact it. No one can impact the past.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#127283
09/02/10 05:30 PM
09/02/10 05:30 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,515
Midland
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In the quotes below the blue highlights say God knew from eternity past which angels and humans would be destroyed in the lake of fire and which humans would embrace salvation and live eternally. The red highlights explain why God chose to create angels and humans even though He knew some would sin and die. That doesn't really answer my question. But Tom asked it. Answer him and I'll know.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#127284
09/02/10 05:31 PM
09/02/10 05:31 PM
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OP
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T: Again, the issue is not one of things be altered, but of not being able to effect change. That is, we cannot change the past. But can we change the future? If God views it like history, then we can't.
R:Can someone change the future? I usually use the word "impact." I would think my meaning would have been clear. The meaning is that what we do makes a difference. That is, we are self-determining beings, with the ability to effect options that make the future "this and not that" or "that and not this." How can someone change what does not exist yet? We can only change the present. If you want to be technical, we don't really change the present either. We contribute to make it what it is. "Change" would mean transforming it from one thing to another.
Last edited by Tom; 09/02/10 05:32 PM. Reason: added phrase to the end
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: vastergotland]
#127285
09/02/10 05:31 PM
09/02/10 05:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Yes, the present is constantly moving and becoming either past or future. But you can't change either the past or the future, just the present. What you can do is impact the future through the changes you make in the present.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Rosangela]
#127286
09/02/10 05:33 PM
09/02/10 05:33 PM
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OP
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Rosangela, is there something you're not understanding in what I wrote?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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