Rosangela, a favor to ask, since you're really good at this. Would you please bump (bring back) the thread on Col. 2:14? I'd like to take another look at it.

Thanks.

No. For the most part I do not believe God has seen fit to reveal enough about it that we can address the matter definitively. The blue highlights make it clear God knew from eternity the GC would play out. The red highlights provide glimpses as to why He chose to create even though He knew it would play out. Nevertheless, these glimpses do not give enough insight to know with certainty why God did it. Knowing it would happen did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness.

The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}

The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. {AG 129.2}

The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent. Redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam, but an eternal purpose, suffered to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created. {ST, December 15, 1914 par. 3}

But for entirely different reasons. So far as we are concerned, from our perspective, the future is unknown and full of possibilities. We are free to choose as we see fit. Just because God, from His perspective, has already seen it play out, it does not change the fact the future is still future for us. Nor does it change the nature or essence of the future from being full of choices to no choices.

Tom, God possesses supernatural abilities. He can do things we cannot do without upsetting the natural laws which govern our planet. He knows the future like history without destroying the nature and essence of the future. He leaves it in tact.

Also, He knows all the possibles way things can play out before they unfold. As it relates to Jesus, He saw that none of the possibilities involved Jesus sinning or failing. Which is why both the Father and the Son never expressed doubt about it. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the Father or the Son were uncertain Jesus would succeed.

I would put this slightly differently. God knew of the possibility it might happen. There are other places in the SOP that use this language (that is, saying something like if man should fall, a Savior would be provided; contingent language). Given that she sometimes uses contingent language, and sometimes language which looks not to be contingent, either the contingent language isn't really contingent, or vice versa.

So here's what we have:

1.When the SOP speaks of the creation of man, sometime she uses contingent language, and sometimes language which looks not to be contingent.

2.The SOP speaks of risk, and heaven being imperiled, which is clearly contingent.

So if we say there's no contingency involved, we have a possible contradiction in 1, and a certain contradiction with 2.

There's also the problem I was getting at before, which is why would God prefer a world with sin in it to a world without sin. Saying He hasn't revealed this doesn't really address the problem.

Elsewhere the SOP explains that the existence of sin is a mystery. Certainly if God chose to create things in a way such that it was certain that sin would exist, there's no mystery involved! Sin exists because that's the way God created things.

There's also the problem that this makes God responsible for the existence of sin. If God set into motion a course of events such that the only possible result was that sin would result, when He could have instead chosen a course of event such that sin would not have resulted, then He's responsible for the existence of sin.

But it isn't really, it's just a delusion.



This is the compatibilistic definition of free will. We can choose to do what we want to do, but we can't actually impact what will happen.



No, of course the knowledge that God has doesn't change the future. The future is what it is. Given your presuppositions, the future is fixed. We suffer under the delusion that it's not, but God sees it as fixed, and it really is fixed (of course, since God's not going to be incorrect about how He sees things). So the future is not "full of choices," but only is apparently so for we who have limited knowledge.

This isn't an issue to our discussion. Knowing what the future is like doesn't upset any natural laws.



Of course! How could it be otherwise?



Under your assumptions, there's only one way. He sees the future like history and reports on what happened is what you said. That means He sees the one possible way things can play out. There's only one way, under your view.



Clearly not, since He revealed through a prophet that heaven was imperiled, and that Christ (also omniscient) "risked all."



If we exclude the SOP.



Ok, so we are excluding the SOP. I take it anytime the SOP reveals something that's not explicitly revealed in Scripture, we should just ignore that as well?

I've explained on a number of occasions that we can discuss this subject purely on the basis of Scripture, but it seems odd to me that you would take the tack you are taking, given how strongly you cite the SOP in relation to how frequently you cite Scripture. It doesn't seem consistent.

"He sees the most remote events of past history and the far distant future with as clear a vision as we do those things which are transpiring daily."
We see realities in the present. If you see the horse fall and break his leg and lose the race, this is it. If God sees the future as we see the present, how can He see only possibilites in the future?


And Ellen White had the benefit of hindsight, yet she says that their lives were at stake. She doesn't say that they thought their lives were at stake, but that their lives were at stake.

God sees the future as clearly as we see the present. What's the difficulty here? Whether the future is single-threaded or multi-threaded, God sees it clearly. Why not? Surely we wouldn't expect God to see a multi-threaded future as blurry, right?



Don't you think what she meant is that if God hadn't acted they would have perished? Do you think she meant something different than this?

When she said, "Remember Christ risked all," is it your thinking that there is a parallel, and what she meant is that Christ would have been in peril if God had not intervened in Christ's life as He did for the Hebrews? She wrote, "Remember, Christ risked all. All heaven was imperiled for our redemption." It seems clear to me that what she meant is that Christ risked Himself, He came at "the risk of failure and eternal loss," as she says elsewhere. So this is what "heaven was imperiled," because "Christ risked all."



Again, didn't she mean that had God not intervened, they would have perished?

Please post the quote you have in mind. In the following passages Ellen White uses clear, unambiguous language. Note that she plainly says 1) the mysterious plan to redeem sinners existed from eternity past, 2) God knew angels and humans would sin and rebel, 3) He chose to create them even though He knew which angels and humans would sin and die in the lake of fire, 4) He did so "for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness ... [and suffered the plan] to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created."

The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}

The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. {AG 129.2}

The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent. Redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam, but an eternal purpose, suffered to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created. {ST, December 15, 1914 par. 3}