Since everybody is interested in my opinion, I'll give it. When I was reading through the post's regarding Restin, my immediate response was that the comments were very sharp and personal in nature. I chose not to comment on it, but have joined in since others have commented on it.

I gave an approach which has worked pretty well for me. Mike and I have been around on this, and he has been kind enough to abide almost 100% to what I have suggested. He used to say things like, "This is wrong." "You are way out of line" and so on. (I hope he doesn't mind my picking on him.) I suggested that these comments are much less abrasive when prefaced by something mitigating them, such as "in my opinion" or "as I see thinigs", or "it appears to me." With these magic words, you can say just about anything -- e.g. "in my opinion, you are an idiot!"

I making the point in jest, but it's a serious point. Jeff is correct. We are reading things and don't have the benefit of tone of voice, so it behooves us to tone down our rhetoric at least 1 notch, and probably 3 or 4 would be better, as things which are written may come across much stronger than spoken.

I want to thank Mike for having been much more charitable in his remarks, which has made the dialogs I have had with him much more pleasant.

I must be having a bad day as far as lack of clarity is concerned. Not just here, but everywhere it seems I'm saying things very clearly. Well, I've slept poorly and had a headache, so maybe that explains it.

When I said, "Well I suppose in the same way one could say it's possible someone (other than Christ) has lived perfectly." I didn't mean lived their whole perfectly put was using the subjective to refer to someone living perfectly now. That's probably not very clear either. Let me try it another way.

In the same way one could say that no one now is living perfectly without sin (as one could ask, show me such a person), one could also say no one now is total non-legalistic. It's theoretically possible that such a person exists, but it's doubtful anyone has seen such a one.

Regarding overcoming sin and the 144,000, the issue is not that God holds back power, but that victory is dependent on light. For example, before the light on the Sabbath was known, there were those who were following Christ to the best of their ability who were nonetheless sinning in an absolute sense (a sense which would require Christ's ministration in the MHP). In order for sin to be brought to an end, it is necessary that there be more light.

God began to give this light in 1888 -- light which would fill the earth with glory, light which was the beginning of the latter rain -- but that light was resisted. Until that light is given, not just the beginning of the latter rain, but it's fullness, it doesn't matter how much one tries, one will not be able to absolutely overcome sin (I'm not just talking about known sin here, but any sin, which would require the continued presenece of Christ as MHP).

It's not just a matter of individual disposition, but there is a corporate element as well. We are all one body, and the victory of the foot, for example, depends on the cooperation of the eye.

I believe that through Christ He will hand us the victory over our sins. I have issues with how the title of the topic is phrased since it will naturally lead to "known or unknown defective traits", then this leads to the "light of God revealing all" and some will say that "it is the work of a lifetime", others will say "its at once" etc etc.. been down this road way too many times. I know the script by memory.
Lok at all the people that Jesus chose.. Let see we have a racist as one of the 12, an adulterer,murderer,drunk,incesteous relations, traitors and even one who denied him, and all 12 left running, and fell asleep.. Yes very astute and troopers they were. All happening by God's chosen people.
My point here is that these men had been in the very presence of God, and have seen the Father in Jesus Christ the Son of God who dwelt among men, so their work was over a lifetime..
God Bless,
Will

Everybody believes perfection is possible. Even Restin. It's just that not everybody agrees as to when it happens. Some people believe it won't happen until after Jesus returns, some believe it happens gradually, and others believe it happens the moment we're born again.

The problem with believing it happens gradually is the example of Jesus. What do we do with His example? Jesus did not overcome sinful traits of character by outgrowing them one at a time over the course of a lifetime. In fact, Jesus started off without any defective traits of character. He successfully resisted the unholy thoughts and feelings generated and communicated by His sinful, fallen, human nature, therefore, He never developed a bad character trait that had to be confessed and crucified.

Jesus lived His life like a born again believer. He is not an example of someone who refuses to obey the word of God, or who cannot seem to kick a bad habit, or who gradually overcomes lesser character imperfections. Instead, the example of Jesus is a demonstration of what life is like when born again believers are connected to the Father, when they continue to partake of the divine nature.

In order for born again believers to imitate the example of Jesus they must first crucify their old man habits of sin, their defective traits of character. Once their old man is dead and buried, they can receive the sinless seed or mind of the new man, which in turn enables them to partake of the divine nature, which then empowers them to imitate the holy example of Jesus.

Born again believers cannot imitate the example of Jesus if they have unknown or unconquered defective traits of character to overcome. Remember, a trait of character, whether good or bad, is the result of yielding repeatedly to the influence of God or Satan. As such, there is no such thing as an unknown trait of character. Since there is no sinful trait or temptation too difficult, in Christ, to resist, the mere existence of an unconquered fallen trait, therefore, is actually nothing more than a cherished sin.

What becomes of a confessed, crucified and conquered fallen trait of character? Is it something that will never tempt us again? Once dead and buried are we impervious to future temptations related to it? Just because we are tempted by it again does that mean we haven't actually overcome it?

"Everybody believes perfection is possible."

But everybody has a different idea as to what perfection is, and how and when it is accomplished. So everybody judges the success or failure of it, according to the idea of perfection they have.

The most common concept of perfection is absence of flaw; inability to improve upon. Naturally where you have such perfection, there is no need for: mercy, grace, longsuffering, patience, etc.; all of which are virtues of God's character. What does that tell us about that kind of perfection?

Perfection in God's sight however is the fullness of: mercy, grace, longsuffering, forgiveness, goodness, patience...; all of the characteristics that are there to deal with imperfection. He wants us to be full of his spirit, of which the fruits are: mercy, grace, longsuffering, forgiveness, goodness, patience...! Is that our concept of perfection?

Let us see with God's judgement/love today, so that when we meet him, we may be as he is. In this manner we are overcomers over all sin and temptation.

Shalom